How to respond to 'we already have socialism and you participate in it'? (vanity)

[HGSW0904]

The common argument from the left in defense of O's policy and socialism in general is that our system is already chock full of socialism. Commonly, lefties reference the police and fire departments, public education, social security, and even insurance plans as evidence that those who espouse free-market ideology are hypocrites.

What say you all?

[mnehring]

Well, first of all, I’m glad they now admit O’s policies are socialism, they are moving forward.

Next, socialism is the centralized control over private industry and property. It has many levels. Most of the departments you posted aren’t private industry but public infrastructure. (of course, for a lib you’ll have to define those).

[mnehring]

(clarification, I don’t consider government taking over insurance or social security as ‘public infrastructure’).

[goodwithagun]

Many fire and police departments are facing lay-offs right now. It seems cities have not been fiscally responsible and safety forces get the boot first. I wouldn’t call that effective governing. Also, have the person you’re arguing with assess the current condition of the roads he/she drives on. They are in great shape, right? So that gubmint program doesn’t work so well either. All of these examples are based on tax payers throwing money into the pot and then that money is redistributed to make our society better/safer.

[wita]

What say you all?

You first!

Just kidding.

It didn’t start with us bucko. Your President Roosevelt had a lot to do with it, and now we are slaves to it. We didn’t vote for it and our forefathers warned against it, and now we are facing a national bankruptcy because of it.

[ClearCase_guy]

Here's an analogy: There's a serial killer in the neighborhood. Everyone knows who he is. He's killed 7 women so far. Should we do something? Should we speak out?

Oh, but why bother? Those 7 women are already dead. They're in the graveyard and that situation isn't likely to change. So, why would anyone bother to complain about the killer? Anyone who does so is a hypocrite.

Is there any logic to this at all????

[GeronL]

Notice these things are at the local and state level.

Look at the headlines and see how stupid have become and tell me we shouldn’t end public education.

We can privatize libraries and fire departments too.

[BitWielder1]

...police and fire departments... Could be privatized but it's possibly an acceptable use of taxpayer money.
...public education... Not working very well, is it? Needs private competition.
...social security... Bankrupt. Nuff said.
...insurance plans... Bloated and Looted. Private is better.
...those who espouse free-market ideology are hypocrites. Who is the hypocrite? Free market works, socialism fails and more socialism does not make it any better.

[mlocher]

Excellent response and analysis. I would only add that the more the federal government is involved, the worse the program is. Local governments can sometimes be effective.

[Celerity]

Remind them : republicans and more accurately, Conservatives, participate in Socialism by paying loads LOADS of taxes and holding the entire tax burden.

Which, by the way, I have stopped. No more. There are plenty of things at tag sales and flea markets.

[HerrBlucher]

"all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

[hosepipe]

Social Security is Now and always has been PURE Socialism..
Not LIKE socialism but PURE socialism..

How do you tell a socialist NOW?..
Answer: Anyone that is NOT for sunsetting Social Security..

Its hard to find a republican that will return a government check... UNcashed...

[Lonesome in Massachussets]

That's an et tuque argumment, on their part. I, for one, would wholeheartedly favor completely dismantling public education and government subsidies or involvement in education. But so long as the government is going to take thousands of dollars from me every year, I'll send my kids to not-quite-awful public schools in the suburbs, especially since the grotesque distortion of the markets caused by public involvement prices alternatives beyond the means of most people. I went to a Catholic school in Queens, where tuition was $24/year, with a maximum of $48/yr/family. Although we had 48 kids per classroom and few fripperies, just a once a week music teacher, our performance on standardized tests was better than public schools. The shortfall in money was made up by Parish fund raising and other forms of volunteerism. The productivity was probably at least twice (or more) of the public schools, not matter how you measure it. On top of which we were not exposed the assinine government propaganda that kids are exposed to these days in public schools, although the nuns were very patriotic, like most Americans in those days. BTW, we were a lower middle class neighborhood, with a standard of living no better most blacks enjoy today.

While my personal experience in public education convinces me superiority and practicality of private education, I think a similar case can be made for smaller police forces. If people were more self-reliant for personal defense, I believe that crime rates would plummet. When seconds count, the police will be there in minutes. The current model is for crime victims to submit to violence and wait for wheels of justice to grind slowly, if ever, to extract risibly light retribution at scandalously high cost. To the criminal justice system, criminals are their clients, their raison d'etre. Taxpayers and crime victims are just the necessary host organism for the whole colony of parasites.

What evidence is there that volunteer fire departments are less effective than profession? I could go on and on. There are certain irreducable responsiblities of government, - defend the borders, for instance - , run fair and impartial courts, as a last recourse to enforce criminal laws, to hang thieves and murders. The more government strays from these limited responsiblities into other areas of our lives, the more poorly it performs its legitmate purposes.

[BitWielder1]

Local governments can sometimes be effective.

Yes. When responsible people who are close to the problem are running the program they can make it work.
It's not too different from a private enterprise.
When Washington overburden themselves with micro-managing things from far away, it will most likely fail.
(Even socialism can function in small groups when everybody know each other and slackers are not tolerated.)

[myself6]

Give me the opportunity to opt out of the socialists programs without sending men with guns to make me pay for them anyway, and I will opt out.

[griswold3]

We’ve always had a ‘mixed economy’ where ‘social programs’ have been a major part. The problem is how to keep check on the ever growing demand for entitlements. When ‘government’, a non productive sector of society drains valuable resources or as we call it, ‘misallocates capital’ from the productive sector, the section that creates value, there is always a downturn.
‘Welfare Reform’ is an example of a ‘check’ on entitlements that kept resources in the private sector.
Of course, if you’re a ‘progressives’ you don’t believe in property rights so all this means nothing since no one ‘owns’ anything.

[behzinlea]

Resistance to tyranny must start where you are, not where you’d like to be.

[Lurker]

Tell them that being forced to participate in a system at the point of a government gun doesn't mean you approve of that system. In fact it makes you a slave.

So ask your liberal friends when they started approving of slavery.

Then stand back so you don't get any pieces of their heads on you.

[tacticalogic]

I say:

We already have capitalism, and you participate in it. It designed and built the firetrucks, and police stations and hospitals, and created the wealth that paid for them.

[griswold3]

Talk about roads and such infrastructure is a point of contention with me since I am in the transportation industry.
All the government would have to do is keep taxes collected by us (transportation industry) separate from the general fund and our infrastructure would be fine.
If you consider the fuel taxes, license, federal excise taxes, and 2290 (Federal Highway Use Tax), our roads should NEVER be in bad shape. (Don’t forget tolls.)