Atlas Shrugged and Christians

Arguing With Conservatives ^

[razorbacks198]

My granddaughter sent me this of a young conservative lady defending libertarianism and John Galt, and this person was saying that Jesus can't go along with Atlas Shrugged. I want to know what a true conservative view is on the two things.

[porter_knorr]

actually her quote is

“If any civilization is to survive, it is the morality of altruism that men have to reject. “

[Righting]

I know atlasshrugs a long time, it’s very conservative, AND very pro Christian!

[21twelve]

I guess my old man was really immoral! He told me later that he paid his two carpenters not only to keep them fed and everything, but also so they would be with him when things got busy again! (They also ignored all of the various labor strikes too!)

Interesting viewpoints from Kant. I’ve heard of the guy, but didn’t realize he was that far out there. I imagine if someone were drowning I wouldn’t have too much time to think about it. Would probably either go for the closest one first, or the one having the most trouble.

[FredZarguna]

Rand ridiculed the injunction "If a man asks for your shirt, give him your cloak as well." She also rejected completely the admonition to turn the other cheek. In fact, her stance on violence is clear: "We must never initiate the agressive use of force, but, we must also never fail to respond against it."

You are right that she would be more sympathetic to [some] Pauline writings (she was, like Paul, a Hellenist in her philosophical origins) but she rejected the fundamental basis of Christianity: there was no need for man to be redeemed, because he has done nothing wrong. In her opinion Original Sin was impossible, since sin involves not merely wrongdoing, but volition as well. Her moral viewpoint is that we all arrive in the world, as Jesus, in a state of sinlessness.

Finally, I would say that you're being too charitable to Rand -- a charity she didn't ask for, and wouldn't accept. She believed that the Buddhist concept of forgiveness was alright; you forgive a wrong so that it stops eating you up inside. In other words, you forgive a wrong for your own sake. She wrote, in The Virtue of Selfishness, that the Christian concept of forgiveness was stupid and was nothing more than a reward to bad actors for bad behavior. Rand did not see Christianity as fundamentally different from Communism. In her opinion, both were collectivist evils founded in pie-in-the-sky promises that demanded self-sacrifice of their adherents. And she did not believe self-sacrifice was ever really justified.

[Tempest]

Here the short version. Atlas Shrugged = morally bankrupt.

Jesus = abundant God.

[FredZarguna]

The hypothetical drowning men have gotten a lot of mileage in moral philosophy, but Dads who employ temporarily useless carpenters (or metaphysically congruent equivalents) are a lot more common, and a lot more useful to the debate, and the world. For all of their differences, I believe Ayn Rand and Jesus would have agreed (for vastly different reasons) that your Dad was, in fact, a moral man.

[Persevero]

“My view is that Big Government wants to kill me and take my money. Christians don’t. “

I am a Christian. I believe Big Government certainly may want to kill us and take our money. Christians believe that all men are sinners, in need of a savior. So I’d say we are pretty much aware that a government can be totally corrupt.

We are still supposed to submit to lawful authorities, unless they command us to sin.

We debate among ourselves what a lawful authority is from time to time.

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

Being generous is inborn;
being altruistic is a learned perversity.
No resemblance.

LAZARUS LONG

[This Just In]

“That is Commonism. Commonism is “What is mine is thine.”

You have taken the passage out of context.

“And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they recieved their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people.” Acts 2:44-47a

This speaks not of commune, but rather, that Christians held onto their possession loosely, ready to use them when ever someone needed it.

Furthermore, they did not pool their resources. But rather, sold their own possessions in order to provide for the church, and expresses fellowship and witness to the gospel. The text clearly states this.

[Persevero]

“I guess my old man was really immoral!”

No. Jesus said to do unto others as we would have done unto us. The Bible says we are our brother’s keeper. There are laws about leaving some of your harvest available for gleaning by the poor, the principle being, don’t hold on to every cotton picking dime.

Your dad sounds as though he had a pretty good handle on things.

[FredZarguna]

A quote which you can find on my home page; I was writing off the top of my head. In many ways she was correct.

In the recent debates from Lefties, how many times have we heard, "I consider [Socialized Medicine, Global Warming, Immigration Amnesty, etc etc] to be a moral issue." And so they do. The problem is these are NOT moral issues, they are public policy questions. Even if we stipulate for the sake of argument that these are moral issues, isn't this the bunch who doesn't think there are moral absolutes? Isn't this the same outfit that says no one has the right to enforce their morality on anyone else?

And please do notice, that these are the folks who despise Christians, and yet, every demand made upon us is laded with the guilt that we are obligated -- because we are our brother's keepers.

[GOP Poet]

and often so very short sighted in that people often pat themselves on the back without truly examining themselves and their motives. They sort of scan the surface, smile and move on all self righteous and such.

Let's see. Given your Kant philosophical examples, I will add: If Ayn Rand and I. Kant were both drowning which one would I rescue? Ayn! Because girlfriend was damn intelligent, fascinating, as well as prescient in her understanding of these commie whackers and had herself the objectivity to look through the looking glass and see the world with incredible accuracy.

[mistressis]

I totally agree. Her heavy reliance on misquoted passages to prove her bogus points about prejudice and “thoughtless faith” make it clear she is totally out of touch with reality.

[higgmeister]

The nature of altruism really isn't selfless. Most so called selfless acts have a vested self-interest which causes them not to be altruistic. The kindest thing one can do for another also makes the beneficent individual feel good about himself.

I question your statement that, " It is not possible under andy circmstances for an Objectivist to be a Christian, nor for a Christian to be an Objectivist" is also not true. You imply that an Objectivist could never be charitable.

I suspect an Objectivist Christian would be the person that does not lie to himself about the true nature of the charitable acts he chooses to do even in Christ's name.

Your typos seem to reveal some anger regarding your feelings about Objectivism. You'll feel much better if you just let that hatred go and try to think more objectively.

[101voodoo]

“My personal idea is that conservatives are guided by experience. Young people don’t have much experience and tend to be more liberal, unless they are educated enough to be able to access the experience of others. Experience can be in any of many areas. Religious education permits accessing prior experience of other’s religion.

Progressives/liberals tend to reject lessons of experience. An airy “Oh, but things are different now” and off they go having hundreds of sexual partners, loaning money to people who can’t pay it back...
*************************”*********************************

I could not possibly agree more with your assessment. The amazing thing is that while younger people are definitely more idealistic, they do after all get older and even though they experience life more fully, as do the rest of us, many of them still remain “stuck on stupid”.

It must be genetic and possibly gender driven.

[chuckles]

Atlas Shrugged is a morally bankrupt tome to analyze conservative policies. Nothing wrong with that, but Our Founders told us to “prefer Christians”. Character is what we do when no one is looking. What would John Galt do if he bought some real estate and found a flaw in the contract to his favor? A Christian may feel morally bound to reveal the flaw if it were discussed in negotiations. What would a pure capitalist do? We can't know because we can't know where and atheist gets their morals. Sort of like arguing about the word “is” when denying you had sex after lying to the whole world on TV. Christians are people too and do fall from time to time, but our Founders knew that any other people would have to have 2700 page laws to follow or they would just make up scenario's and say it wasn't covered. We may know the spirit of the law, but we need a lawyer to tell us what we can get away with. Ayn Rand wrote a good book to teach the finer points of conservatism, but I think a Christian conservative would probably do the “right” thing and not just the conservative thing. The commands of Jesus, IMHO, are of utmost importance to our daily lives and not just the laws of the jungle. Ayn felt objectivism was a moral set of laws that were always the best policy and it really depends on the person how they interpret objectivism. If I meet a Muslim, I know where his morals come from, as I do a Hindu or a Christian. They are obviously NOT the same. Ayn would say that objectivism was better than all the others even though she knew people that showed no mercy, compassion, or love to their fellow man. Her life was as a conservative communist or a communist capitalist because that is what she knew. It depends on the subject. She was raised in communism so she was familiar with their “morals”. She loved freedom here,, but I'm afraid she never learned why we are free.

I believe there is a religious part of freedom that can't be expressed in other countries that are secular. Islam breeds it's own type of morals as does atheists do in communism. In the end, doing the right thing comes from God, and others will fail trying to figure out what the "right" thing is from their made up rule books.

[FredZarguna]

There is one typo: andy = any. "jesus" and "his" are deliberately not capitalized. It is generally considered rude as well as pointless to do this kind of nitpicking. If you have an argument, make it. I see that you don't. Your post is almost entirely made up of misunderstandings, misinterpretations and ad hominem.

I have nothing against Objectivism. See my homepage.

You imply that an Objectivist could never be charitable. I imply no such thing. You have inferred it, and you are mistaken. Charity can be selfish -- properly understood. Jesus' view is actually closer to Kant's: he admonishes people from taking satisfaction of the kind you write of in charitable work. Nevertheless, Rand would be horrified at the thought that an Objectivist could be a Christian. If you had ever read any of her writings, you would know this. Read my other posts, which quote her at length if you want to disabuse yourself of your silly ideas about Rand.

[101voodoo]

"I do know that in my business, I treat my clients fairly, do a good job, and even cut my prices back when needed to help them out"

In the 1970's I owned a small retail business and found great success in NOT selling things which would bring me a greater profit then the things I did sell to a customer. It is easy to take advantage of a customer who comes in to a store and seeks advice from someone he perceives to be knowledgeable (it's te same idea that causes people to believe an elected official "knows what's he's talking about"). I could have loaded them up with all sorts of stuff to solve their problem and ring up a nice sale but instead chose to only sell them what they needed and to also take the time to guide them in using the product. By taking this approach I was able to generate additional sales by word of mouth advertising as well as build strong loyalty within my customer base. This allowed me to cut back on my advertising budget with the savings going in my pocket.

[FredZarguna]

While just about all Republicans (and a lot of Conservatives) were falling all over themselves to get the Civil Rights Act passed, Ayn Rand was one of the first to oppose it as fundamentally anti-Constitutional and anti-Liberty. She predicted it would simply replace Jim Crow with a whole new set of racial preferences -- only the colors of the recipients faces would change.

How is that Left leaning?

[higgmeister]

You drill down to deeply and then make absolute statements. What are the requirements for being a Christian and what does it take to be and Objectivist?

The answers are John - 3.16 and belief in the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

Knowing the New Testament from Matthew to Revelation is not necessary to being a Christian any more than reading every work by and about Ayn Rand is a requirement for calling oneself an Objectivist.

I became a Christian in 1978. When I discovered Ayn Rand a few years later, I felt at that time that I had always been an Objectivist, because that fit how my brain is wired.

I have read, We the Living, Anthem, The Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged and many other articles and excerpts of the The Objectivist Newsletter. I am on the email distribution of the The Objective Standard although not a current subscriber. I still get the requisite yearly copy as an enticement to subscribe. Being Christian is of the heart, being an Objectivist is of the mind.