Posted on 03/25/2010 7:04:44 AM PDT by greatdefender
Teachers, parents and education leaders are in Tallahassee Thursday fighting for education funding but there's another issue on their minds: a new merit pay evaluation system that could potentially change the way teachers are paid.
"I think it's a good idea but the way it's being done is concerning me," Lawton Chiles Elementary School Principal Ian Gesundheit, said.
Teachers would have to make the grade, being evaluated on the new system that would eliminate tenure and base teacher raises on how well students perform on standardized tests. More than 50 percent of a teacher's evaluation would be determined by student success, not by teacher experience.
"If you have a master's degree, if you take the time to be nationally certified, you should be rewarded for that in monetary value. I also think the control should be locally," parent Angie Gallo said.
"I don't believe in merit pay because it would not be fair for the teachers that teach in lower schools. Their children would not be scoring as high as the children in the higher income schools, therefore they would not get the pay that the other teachers would get," teacher Andria Price said.
If the bill, which passed in the Florida senate Wednesday becomes law, how will it change the classroom experience?
"It would change things in that I think teachers around me would feel frustration. Single teachers who this is the only income, they would definitely feel frustration because this is their life they wouldn't have the salary that they need to pay," said Price.
"I would try to work harder so they could get more money of course," student and Gesundheit's daughter, Leiana, said.
Questions have come up about which standardized tests would measure student success. Some of those tests haven't even been developed yet. Some education leaders WESH 2 spoke to said their not necessarily against the idea of merit pay, they just think the bill needs more work.
At the beginning of each school year test every child. At the end of the year give them the identical test again. Reward teachers based on the progress their students made during the year.
Are they saying that changing the way teachers get paid may result in changing the way that teachers get paid?
Are they sure?
You haven’t seen fog till you spend a winter in the Bakersfield-Tulare area.
I wish I had a job where my raises and/or bonuses weren’t based on performance evaluations. I could then lay back and live on Easy St.
;-)
Every job I’ve ever had was based on my job performance. Why should teachers be different? They want to get rid of FCAT because so many schools failed but claim it is because it takes so much of their time. Now they don’t want to be accountable at all? Nice gig if you can get it I guess.
I have worked for 30 years in post-secondary education. Evaluating teaching effectiveness is one of the hardest tasks that administrators have. Even metric that is commonly used has serious fundamental flaws which usually lead to some dysfunctional behavior as instructors attempt to game the system.
“Every job I’ve ever had was based on my job performance. Why should teachers be different?”
Because in most jobs, it is in fact YOUR job performance that is being measured. In teaching, no matter how good I do my job, I cannot guarantee the outcome, especially not when it is being measured by a test taken by someone other than myself, i.e., the student. Some fool who stamps license plates can guarantee that 1. he can stamp them all the same size; 2. that they are all the same consistency; 3. that I make so many in an hour, so many per day, etc. It is in fact a lot like being a doctor- if you tell the patient “take 3 of these and you won’t die” and the patient takes one and croaks, then it is not the doctor’s fault (although some pathetic lawyer can probably turn that into falsehood...)
You guys want to make a real difference in education? It won’t be by trying to run it in the same way you stamp license plates. The real difference is made by 1. getting conservatives elected to school boards, who will hire conservative administrators, who will hire conservative teachers. Graduate conservative students who go on to college, some of whom will eventually become school administrators, teachers, and even college professors. Give money to private conservative universities, and if such don’t exist, found some. When we can get people into education that have sensible notions about what is possible and what is not, then we can at least begin to address the numerous ills with what once functioned as an education system.
And yes, I teach- and I am a better teacher 12 years after I started than I was when I started, and I hope I will be better still in the years to come. Experience matters in most jobs more complicated than swinging a mop- and it even helps with that.
While I admire your passion, if you ran a business the way the School system has been run over the last 50 years, it would have been OUT of business 45 years ago.
Why does it take half the money per student in the Private School System? Why does it take twice as many Administrative positions to run the school offices than it does a Major Corporation with as many employees as students? What company can vote itself raises when the money/profit isn’t there?
You have to ask yourself why folks like me are a little indifferent when it comes to the decades of crying and whining from teachers. BTW, my daughter is an Honors student, straight A’s as matter of fact. It is her hard work not necessarily the teachers (although she has a few good ones) while the rest of her class has a grade average of 80%. If a teacher consistently has failing students, why not take a closer look? Why do students on average do better in a Private School through Vouchers than he/she performs in Public school?
Fair enough questions don’t you think?
Sounds good, but the pressure to cook the test results will be enormous. Better have airtight monitoring.
I’ve always been of the mind that all lawmakers need to have a CONVICTED con man on their staff. He would be asked “How would you get around this law?” and then make changes to prevent the go-around.
Note that I stressed “convicted” - it seems you can’t be a politician with having con man talents.
I am a Mechanical Contractor and Engineer. I can assure you it took a LOT of hard work to get that degree. I get a little tired of the teachers who throw that little diddy of their superior education and how hard they worked for it. While it is true they did receive a higher education, please see post no. 9.
This is one of the worst pieces of legislation I have ever seen... terrible for the teachers and the kids..
A teacher is not a job where good performance = good results.. the kids dont care, the parents dont care.. kids come to school hungry, abused, or not at all..... what teacher would want to work with at-risk kids when it could put their job on the line by bringing down the test scores?
In most cases I agree that how well you perform at your job should bear on how you get paid... but not teachers... there is too much out of their control..
this is a big disaster for education in Florida...
If you want to increase kids’ school performance.... take away the WELFARE PAYMENTS for the parents if their kids are failing school!!
“if you ran a business the way the School system has been run over the last 50 years, it would have been OUT of business 45 years ago.”
No doubt- but school is not exactly a business producing so many widgets per hour at a unit cost of $1.45 US.
“Why does it take half the money per student in the Private School System? Why does it take twice as many Administrative positions to run the school offices than it does a Major Corporation with as many employees as students?”
Part of that is in fact corruption, especially in big-city school systems. As far as private schools, they pay their teachers a lot less. The reason why teachers would teach in those is pretty simple- the bad students are either priced out by tuition, or screened out by an admissions process. Disruptive students are sent home. In the public school system, we are not so lucky....we accept anybody who walks through the door (or oozes under it.) And once there...unless they do something terribly egregious, they are pretty much going to be there. And some students, just don’t need to be- they disrupt the learning of other students over and over.....
“BTW, my daughter is an Honors student, straight A’s as matter of fact. It is her hard work not necessarily the teachers (although she has a few good ones) while the rest of her class has a grade average of 80%.”
Kudos to you- for being a good parent. The thing is though, the kids who excel generally do it under their own power. Her hard work should get her the best grades- and if the rest of the class wants the same, they should do what she does. (Individual responsibility- a conservate value...) And if their parents want their kids to make the same sort of grades, they should do whatever you are doing. As you might have begun to suspect, a lot of things are completely out of the teacher’s scope.
“What company can vote itself raises when the money/profit isn’t there?”
Again, public education is not truly a business. A profession, perhaps, but not a profit-based one. Private education is for profit- but as I mentioned above, they exist on a whole different planet.
“You have to ask yourself why folks like me are a little indifferent when it comes to the decades of crying and whining from teachers.”
Not really. If you teach you find that there is a great deal of indifference (and outright ignorance) of what you do.
Because I posted one post during my lunch period (25 minutes) and I found time to reply after school when I was done tutoring students while simultaneously advising a club meeting. (A lot of other things go into teaching- we don’t just show up, work a few hours, and go home- like a lot of people think.)
For much the same reasons stated in #16. I responded initially on my lunch hour after holding office hours all morning. Then I had classes all afternoon (BTW giving an exam in each class which I will be grading most of the weekend). I now have a break before my evening class. How is it that someone who is so obsessed with productivity can sit around and get upset because he didn't get an immediate response to a comment on a forum? Don't you have something else to do? Notice the teacher and professor did.
In response to your other comment, yes, there are lots of inefficiencies in public education. Perhaps, not as many as people commonly think but certainly schools could be more efficiently run. I have my children in a private, Christian school which provides a good education for a lower cost per student than public school can. However, that is because the teachers in the Christian school see their role as part of a ministry so their salaries are much lower than their public school counterparts. Since salaries are typically 75% or more of a school's budget, this is significant. Also, the school doesn't offer a lot of expensive services which the public schools are mandated to offer. While the public school administrative costs are typically unjustifiable, the inefficiencies in their operations are typically overstated.
I appreciated that you worked hard to get where you did but a lot of teachers did, too. In order for me to become qualified to become a tenure-track professor, I completed 10 years of college (3 degrees) and 6 years of that time I sacrified a full-time salary as a certified professional.
Yes, and I managed to slip this in during my non-profit hours in excess of a 16 hour day.
Please...
Sounds like you and only you put in more than a 16 hour day today and only worked harder than anyone on your Thesis to graduate. Please excuse while I barf!
BTW I’m still working on my March draw. Your check will come to you whether or not a Company gets paid.
You would FAIL in the Public Sector and YOU KNOW IT!
Sounds like you and only you put in more than a 16 hour day today and only worked harder than anyone on your Thesis to graduate. Please excuse while I barf!
I was only replying to your boorish "crickets" comment. I was busy, so I didn't have a chance to respond right away. Sorry to shatter your illusions but teachers and professors put in a lot of hours and have lots of commitments that don't allow them to operate on your schedule. BTW, you can respond to this post at your convenience. I can understand that you might have other more important things to do. You can ignore this post if you choose because frankly I don't care what you think.
BTW I’m still working on my March draw. Your check will come to you whether or not a Company gets paid.
I am so ashamed. (/sarcasm) BTW, why are seeking pity when you knew the type of business you were getting into? All you seem to want to do is bellyache about how hard you work and how unfair it is that teachers have it better than you. I think you have some bitterness issues to work on.
You would FAIL in the Public Sector and YOU KNOW IT!
I think that you need to learn the distinction between the private sector and the public sector. Since I work for a state university, I am in the public sector and since I am a tenured professor, I have a degree of success there. I have worked in the private sector as well and was very successful before I switched to academe. I'm confident that I would do well there if I chose to go back.
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