Posted on 02/16/2010 7:27:44 PM PST by ggrrrrr23456
So, what exactly is a Libertarian?
I have a friend who calls himself a Libertarian. I've known him for about a year. We both have similar interests, share the same political views (generally), and have respect for a benevolent and gracious higher power.
Lately, my friend has been sending out articles written by "Libertarians" and those associated with the Campaign for Liberty. Most of these articles are highly critical of the war on terror, ridicule the efforts of the Bush administration to combat the terror threat, and seize on any opportunity to highlight misguided efforts at Guantanamo, Afghanistan, or Iraq.
I get the impression that my friend believes the government, in its pursuit of terrorists, is seriously endangering the rights of free, law-abiding citizens like you and I. While I can understand the concern, especially in light of the Obama administration's alarming statements regarding military veterans and so-called right-wing extremists (aka Teapartiers), I am searching for the right response that addresses the terror issue without negating the importance of the preservation of individual liberty.
I would appreciate your input.
Please stop watching that ridiculous program! LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!
>>First and foremost, I am a Federalist, as our Founding Fathers were. <<
Your entire post is provocative (n the good way, as in provoking thinking). We have huge problems with “labels” but said labels are the way we, as humans, identify and classify.
I could delve deeper and ask if you are Hamiltonian or Jeffersonian (I am not asking, I am being exemplary).
This is why the “Conservative Litmus Test” drives me up the wall. Against the WOD (I am)? Does that make one Conservative or begin the march to RINOdom? How about allowing suicide (a very lively debate underway at this moment)? If you think the State should stay the heck out of it, does that revoke your Conservative Card?
This goes on and on.
So we can’t really answer the OP, since one man’s mead is another’s poisson.
But I was taken aback a bit by the suggestion Libertarians are open borders types. Those are closer to the anarchists IMHO.
>>sounds too close to open borders to me.<<
Thanks for doing the legwork — again, we have a spectrum but that is cuddling up WAY too close, I agree.
“I know a lot of Libertarians and none support open borders.”
The party sure does and they must represent the most concise definition of Libertarianism in the real world.
2004 Libertarian Party Platform:
Immigration
The Issue: We welcome all refugees to our country and condemn the efforts of U.S. officials to create a new “Berlin Wall” which would keep them captive. We condemn the U.S. government’s policy of barring those refugees from our country and preventing Americans from assisting their passage to help them escape tyranny or improve their economic prospects.
The Principle: We hold that human rights should not be denied or abridged on the basis of nationality. Undocumented non-citizens should not be denied the fundamental freedom to labor and to move about unmolested. Furthermore, immigration must not be restricted for reasons of race, religion, political creed, age or sexual preference. We oppose government welfare and resettlement payments to non-citizens just as we oppose government welfare payments to all other persons.
Solutions: We condemn massive roundups of Hispanic Americans and others by the federal government in its hunt for individuals not possessing required government documents. We strongly oppose all measures that punish employers who hire undocumented workers. Such measures repress free enterprise, harass workers, and systematically discourage employers from hiring Hispanics.
Transitional Action: We call for the elimination of all restrictions on immigration, the abolition of the Immigration and Naturalization Service and the Border Patrol, and a declaration of full amnesty for all people who have entered the country illegally.
Yeah — I was schooled a few posts back.
I am so surprised, I forgot just how the Libertarian concept works.
But individuals that I know don’t support that part of the platform — FWIIW.
I voted for GWB twice. I don’t consider him to be libertarian. Yet, even after 9/11, those borders were left open. So, the Republicans gave us open borders, too.
They just got pardoned!
I’m working on my second song, “Squattin’ Over Wall Street”. I figure I’ll be a 60 something rambling the road, taking young chicks under my wing and teaching them about life, then driving away in my 1985 Dodge truck, to another town or city, and another dusty, dimly lit bar, with peanut shells on the floor, and hitting that loud E chord, and “Gots my Big Check this morning. . .
parsy, who says, I can dream can’t I?
Read post 25 to learn what “open borders” are.
It was too long. Socialism can’t just be any government program at all, or there is no sense to there being a definition. Government control over the means of production is where socialism begins. Like in England, when the government owned some of the industries. . .
parsy
Read what the party position is in post 25.
That is post 125.
Okay, I’m not inferring social security is full blown socialism. I does, however, have aspects of socialism. Like the whole definition states, socialism is not theory that’s completely set in stone.
I realize the LP wants to make open borders official policy. But, the way I see it, the only difference between the LP platform on open borders and the “unofficial” policy on open borders we’ve had for a long time is that the LP wouldn’t have us giving goodies away to the people coming over (or to anyone, for that matter).
The GOP just really disappointed this voter on the issue. ;-)
Hmmm...
So...
One
Social Security is a fund and real checks are drawn on it.
Two
Is it forced confiscation? Yes. Is it right? No. But many people did not plan for retirement during the depression and this is one of the New Deal thingy’s we need to abolish. Not that it matters, it’s going to implode in less than 8 years.
Three
the article is a piss poor definition of socialism and only a screed about governments limited role in our lives.
Which I agree with but the semantics don’t exactly match up.
Again -
From each according to his works,
To each according to his needs.
In real socialism everyone is the same denomination of government stamp and gets licked the same way.
In fact a real world example of what we can say socialism really would like is Medicare.
You have a government and some idiot from Kenya saying how bad the insurance companies are and they bad people for denying benefits.
Well guess who is the biggest denier using any measurement you want, per capita, dollars total, shear number of request denied, second and third opinion requirements?
Or even who requires the most scale the ladder of doctor recommended specialists. That is, one doctor refers you to another for a special look, by a special guy, with a special skill in that special area.
Why it is the government run Medicare. That’s right. They have a 35% higher rate of denial care than insurance companies!
Now here is the scary part, if you are in the Medicare program and they have limits on the care you receive, that is based on something called “Standard” you can’t even pay the doctor to do more.
Yep, you are in a procedure and the care is now over the limit, you can’t just whip your Visa and be done with it.
Now the scenario gets even worse if the DeathCare were ever to pass.
I already have and I do not agree with that.
Again, you make my point. Look over to the left of your link, go down five lines and you get “What is Libertarianism”. This is the problem. I suspect you are a conservative. Yet, you are pulling right off a libertarian website without recognizing it because, as I said before, the durn LICE have been messing with the GOP and conservatives to the point your typical conservative, and republican, is a mutant-—part conservative-part libertarian.
So, according to the LIBERTARIAN link you gave, social security is socialism. But lets read the rest of their planks:
What is Libertarianism?
Libertarianism is a political philosophy that holds that a person should be free to do whatever he wants in life, as long as his conduct is peaceful. Thus, as long a person doesnt murder, rape, burglarize, defraud, trespass, steal, or inflict any other act of violence against another persons life, liberty, or property, libertarians hold that the government should leave him alone. In fact, libertarians believe that a primary purpose of government is to prosecute and punish anti-social individuals who initiate force against others.
What are some policy ramifications of what has become known as the libertarian “non-aggression principle”?
People should be free to engage in any economic enterprise without permission or interference from the state. Thus libertarians oppose all occupational licensure laws and all economic regulations of business activity. Libertarians also believe that people have the right to keep whatever they earn and decide for themselves what to do with their own moneyspend it, invest it, save it, hoard it, or donate it.
This then means, necessarily, that libertarians are ardent advocates of the free market, which is simply a process by which people are interacting peacefully with each other for mutual gain.
What are some specific applications of libertarian principles to real-world problems?
Education: libertarians call for the complete separation of school and state, which means the repeal of school compulsory-attendance laws and school taxesthat is, the complete end of all governmental involvement in education. This would mean a completely free market in education, in which consumers decide the best educational vehicles for their children and entrepreneurs (both for-profit and charitable) are meeting the demands of the consumers.
Social Security: an immediate repeal of Social Security, which is simply a coercive transfer program in which older people are able to steal from young people. Again, people have a right to their own earnings. If a person fails to provide for his retirement, he must rely on the charity and good will of his family, his friends, his church groups, or people in his community. Libertarians believe that it is morally wrong for a person to use the state to take what doesnt belong to him.
Welfare: immediate repeal of all welfare primarily on moral grounds but also on the terribly destructive aspects of government welfare programs. People have a right to their own earnings and no one has the right to take someone elses money against his will. Moreover, no one is made a better person because the state is taking money from one person in order to give it to another person. Finally, government welfare creates a sense of hopeless dependency on the welfare recipient.
Drug laws: the decades-long war on drugs is immoral and has proven to be highly destructive. People have a right to engage in peaceful, self-destructive behavior as long as their conduct is peaceful. Drug addiction should be treated as a social, medical, psychological problem, not a criminal one. Legalizing drugs would immediately put an end to drug lords and drug gangs and the violence associated with the drug warthat is, the burglaries, robberies, thefts, etc. associated with the exorbitant black-market prices that drug users must pay to finance their habits.
The IRS and income tax: repeal them and leave people free to keep the fruits of their earnings and decide for themselves how to dispose of their wealth.
Gun Control: People have a right to resist the tyranny of their own government and to protect themselves from the violent acts of private criminals.
Environment: Governments are the great destroyers of the environment. In fact, most environmental problems can be traced to public, not private, ownership of resources. The solution is to privatize public property to the maximum extent possible.
Health Care: the crisis in health care, especially with respect to ever-rising prices, is due to heavy government involvement in health careMedicare, Medicaid, and licensure laws. These laws and programs should be repealed in favor of a totally free market in health care.
Immigration: Libertarians oppose any controls on the free movements of goods and people, both domestically and internationally. People have the right to move and to improve their lives.
Foreign Policy: Libertarians oppose involvement in foreign wars as well as all foreign aid. The U.S. government should be limited to protecting the nation from invasion but should stay out of the affairs of other nations.
Civil Liberties: Libertarians are firm advocates of the First Amendment and the procedural aspects of due process of law, such as the rights to be protected from unreasonable searches and seizures, and in criminal cases the right to an attorney, notice and hearing, and trial by jury.
With the tragic exception of slavery and several minor exceptions, the philosophy on which the United States was founded was, by and large, founded on libertarianism, especially with the ideas in the Declaration of Independence and the limitation on powers in the Constitution.
In 1890 America, for example, the following government programs were virtually nonexistent: income taxation, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, economic regulation, occupational licensure, a Federal Reserve System, conscription, immigration controls, and gun control.
In the 20th century, the American people abandoned libertarianism in favor of the socialistic welfare state and the controlled or regulated society.
Thus, the intellectual and moral battle for the third century of our nations existence is between those who favor liberty libertarians versus those who favor state control of peaceful activity “statists.”
Now remember, this is from YOUR link. Do you think these are “conservative” pricnciples????
parsy
Dream on. LOL
That was quick.
You really don’t see the difference in us trying to limit illegals and us closing down the Border Guard and ending the INS and truly opening our borders to the world?
One big difference is that once done the issue is over, settled, done and not open to political pressure again.
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