GAIN ON SOVIET SOIL REPORTED BY FINNS; NEW RED DRIVE ON (12/29/39)

Microfiche-New York Times archives, Cabrillo College Library | 12/29/39 | Frank L. Kluckhohn, James Aldridge, Hugh Byas, Hallett Abend

[plenipotentiary]

Cougar. I'm not transcribing 29 Pages. What bit would you like supporting. I merely quoted Wikipedia cos it has a section labeled "Support".

How about: http://wapedia.mobi/en/Stalin's_Missed_Chance

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v20/v20n6p59_Michaels.html

"Yet, working solely from Soviet open source literature on the war, Suvorov deduced the Soviet plan to invade Germany, predicting that in time official documents would be found to substantiate his conclusions. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, such documents have surfaced with increasing frequency, and in recent years Suvorov has found a perfect partner in Meltiukhov, who, with his experience in documentation and archival science and his easier access to Soviet-era records, has provided documentation for Suvorov's theses."

"Soviet mobilization and deployment in the period January-June 1941 took place in three stages:

first stage, January-March, the call-up of about a million reservists, industry ordered to step up production of T-34 and KV tanks, first echelon troops brought up to strength; second stage, April-June, second echelon forces moved up to the western border, Far Eastern troops moved west; third stage, June 1-June 22, Stalin agrees to open mobilization and to advancing second echelon armies to the front. All these operations were to be carried out in secrecy, without the enemy taking note. Once mobilized and in position, the Soviet forces were to launch a sudden, decisive offensive against Germany and her allies. According to Meltiukhov, the correlation of forces along the front from Ostroleka (Poland) to the Carpathians at the time of the planned Zhukov offensive was as shown in the table below.

	Red Army	Wehrmacht	Ratio
Divisions	128	55	2.3:1
Troop strength	3,400,000	1,400,000	2.1:1
Field guns	38,500	16,300	2.4:1
Tanks	7,500	900	8.7:1
Aircraft	6,200	1,400	4.4:1

The attack was to begin in typical blitzkrieg fashion -- without warning, with air raids on enemy airfields, and with heavy artillery bombardment of front-line enemy forces. The USSR would thus have had the clear advantage of superior forces and the benefits of the first strike. Why Stalin did not give the order to attack is unknown.

In "Stalin's Lost Opportunity," Meltiukhov establishes, with meticulous documentation, that in the years 1938-40 the Soviet Union had carried out a massive build-up of military muscle that made it the superpower of the day, far exceeding the might of any enemy. Meltiukhov presents the comparative strength of the major belligerents for August 1939, on the eve of Germany's invasion of Poland, as shown in the table above."

http://militera.lib.ru/research/meltyukhov/s07.gif

[CougarGA7]

You didn’t read what I wrote at all did you. I didn’t say transcribe 29 pages, I said find a source in there that backs up his assertion. I do not feel wikipedia is a reliable source and I don’t know a single professor that will accept it as that. You mention Meltiukhov and documentation that has been found since the collapse of the Soviet Union. That’s what I’m talking about. Are there any direct references to these document in his book and what are those documents.

I am saying that Suvorov’s evidence is very suspect and from what I can tell from what I’ve taken the time to look into myself I would say that he is a defector that is just trying to cash in on a supposition that he cannot really prove. You have the book, I do not. What source does he use to back up his specific claim that Stalin started the war.

[plenipotentiary]

You are “...saying that Suvorov’s evidence is very suspect and from what I can tell from what I’ve taken the time to look into myself I would say that he is a defector that is just trying to cash in....”

Suvorov is suspect but you haven’t read the book!!! He’s a defector, so you’d rather believe those who stayed and toe the Commie Party Line?

Suvorov uses an accumulation of evidence to show that Stalin planned and provoked the War.

Read the books.

[plenipotentiary]

Stalin’s Politburo explains Ribbentrop pact

- How could a world revolution be hastened?

- A lengthy war. (Here follow detailed explanations and quotations from Marx, Engels and Lenin.) 1

- Is a European war in the interest of Comintern?

- Yes, provided that such a war paves the way for a revolution among the masses. (Here follow quotations from Lenin.) 1

- Would a pact between the Soviet Union, England and France expedite a war?

- No, such a pact between Russia and the Western Powers would occasion Germany to forbear to plunge into a “military” adventure.

- Will a Russo-German pact hasten the outbreak of war?

- Yes, since the neutrality of Russia gives Germany the possibility to carry out her plans.

- What will happen if the Soviet Union does not agree to any pact at all? Whether with Germany or with England and France?

- As long as the Soviet Union does not pronounce her stand, a peaceful solution of the conflict is possible.

- What has the Soviet Union to set about in order to hasten the world revolution?

- Support Germany, so that Germany can start a war, and then try to effect the war to become a lengthy one.

From information received, the circular was drawn up at a meeting in the Kremlin2 attended by Stalin, Molotov, Voroshilov, Zhdanov, Lazar, Kaga­no­vich3, Andreev, Shvernik, Mikoyan, Beria, Kalinin a.o. [=and others].

The circular has been prepared in order to forestall discontent amongst the Communist leaders and to explain to them why the pact with Germany has been created.4

http://www.carlonordling.se/ww2/ribbentrop.html

Stalin’s speech to the Politburo on 19 August 1939, reconstructed from renderings in Novyi Mir, Moscow, and Revue de Droit International, Geneva

..On the other hand, if we accept Germany’s proposal, that you know, and conclude a non-aggression pact with her, she will certainly invade Poland, and the intervention of France and England is then unavoidable. Western Europe would be subjected to serious upheavals and disorder. In this case we will have a great opportunity to stay out of the conflict, and we could plan the opportune time for us to enter the war.

The experience of the last 20 years has shown that in peacetime the Communist movement is never strong enough for the Bolshevik Party to seize power. The dictatorship of such a Party will only become possible as the result of a major war.

Our choice is clear. We must accept the German proposal and, with a refusal, politely send the Anglo-French mission home.

It is not difficult to envisage the importance which we would obtain in this way of proceeding. It is obvious, for us, that Poland will be destroyed even before England and France are able to come to her assistance. In this case Germany will cede to us a part of Poland… Our immediate advantage will be to take Poland all the way to the gates of Warsaw, as well as Ukrainian Galicia.

...Therefore, our goal is that Germany should carry out the war as long as possible so that England and France grow weary and become exhausted to such a degree that they are no longer in a position to put down a Sovietized Germany.

Our position is this. Maintaining neutrality and waiting for the right time, the USSR will presently assist Germany economically and supply her with raw materials and provisions. It goes without saying that our assistance should not exceed a certain limit; we must not send so much as to weaken our economy or the power of our army.

At the same time we must carry on active Communist propaganda in the Anglo-French bloc, and predominantly in France.

For the realization of these plans it is essential that the war continue for as long as possible, and all forces, which we have available in Western Europe and the Balkans, should be directed toward this goal.

Comrades, I have presented my considerations to you. I repeat that it is in the interest of the USSR, the workers’ homeland that a war breaks out between the Reich and the capitalist Anglo-French bloc. It is essential for us/Everything should be done so that it drags out as long as possible with the goal of weakening both sides. For this reason, it is imperative that we agree to conclude the pact proposed by Germany, and then work in such a way that this war, once it is declared, will be prolonged maximally. We must strengthen our economic/propaganda work in the belligerent countries, in order to be prepared when the war ends.

(For the original text published in Revue de Droit International, see Stalin’s August 1939 Speech, French version; and for the version published in Novyi Mir, see Stalin’s August 1939 Speech, Russian version. The essence of the speech agrees with the arguments presented in the circular published in the Svenska Pressen, Helsinki, on 8 September 1939, see Stalin’s politburo explains Ribbentrop pact.)

http://www.carlonordling.se/ww2/stalin_speech_complete.html

[BroJoeK]

"What has the Soviet Union to set about in order to hasten the world revolution?

"- Support Germany, so that Germany can start a war, and then try to effect the war to become a lengthy one."

Seems to me this is exactly right. In psychological terms, that would make Stalin Hitler's enabler, and Hitler the initiator of WWII.

Remember the gang of thugs: Mussolini driving the getaway car, Stalin covering Hitler's back, Hitler leading the gang into a bank. When crimes were committed, all three were guilty, but Hitler was still the leader.

[CougarGA7]

Suvorov is suspect because his sources are questionable. Reading the book does not change that. His first book in which he makes this claim has no sources at all. He just pulled it out of thin air. Now he is making a career trying to justify it. That’s why I’m saying I’d rather look at the Soviet archive than trust what he say. The point stands that you shouldn’t put all your faith in one book.

[plenipotentiary]

You think you will ever see anything incriminating come out of the Soviet Archive? I already posted his comment that his book is based on deduction from open source, plus he invites readers who want a source for particular info to email info@suvorov.com and ask him. Why not take up his offer?

Also keep in mind that he is a defector. Part of his deal with the British may well include an undertaking not to publish anything which will enlighten the Soviets as to the extent of the breach in their security.

[CougarGA7]

I really just want to know what documentation he references in the back of his book. That’s all.

[plenipotentiary]

Well if you don’t want to read the book or email the author, I guess we’ll leave it at that.

[CougarGA7]

I don’t understand why you cant look in the back of the book and give me one source that is in it. I’m beginning to feel that there isn’t any.