BRITISH DESTROYER SUNK BY NAZI MINE; 4 OTHER SHIPS LOST (11/15/39)

Microfiche-New York Times archives, McHenry Library, U.C. Santa Cruz | 11/15/39 | Raymond Daniell, Hugh Byas

[Homer_J_Simpson]

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[Homer_J_Simpson]

Free Republic University, Department of History presents World War II Plus 70 Years: Seminar and Discussion Forum
First session: September 1, 2009. Last date to add: September 2, 2015.
Reading assignment: New York Times articles delivered daily to students on the 70th anniversary of original publication date. (Previously posted articles can be found by searching on keyword “realtime”.)
To add this class to or drop it from your schedule notify Admissions and Records (Attn: Homer_J_Simpson) by freepmail. Those on the Realtime +/- 70 Years ping list are automatically enrolled. Course description, prerequisites and tuition information is available at the bottom of Homer’s profile.

[Homer_J_Simpson]

[On] November 15, 1939, when Hitler was trying vainly to buck up his generals to launch an attack in the West, Raeder instructed the Naval War Staff to examine “the possibility of invading England, a possibility arising if certain conditions are fulfilled by the further course of the war.” It was the first time in history that any German military staff had been asked even to consider such an action. It seems likely that Raeder took this step largely because he wanted to anticipate any sudden aberration of his unpredictable Leader. There is no record that Hitler was consulted or knew anything about it. The furthest his thoughts went at this time was to get airfields and naval bases in Holland, Belgium and France for the tightening of the blockade against the British Isles.

William L. Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich

[Homer_J_Simpson]

First Lord to First Sea Lord 15.XI.39

Pray let me have details of the proposed first Canadian convoy. How many ships, which ships, how many men in each ship, what speed will convoy take, escort both A.S. and anti-raider? Place of assembly and date of departure should be mentioned verbally.

Winston S. Churchill, The Gathering Storm

[Homer_J_Simpson]

British Destroyer Sunk By Nazi Mine; 4 Other Ships Lost – 1-2
Merchant Ships Sunk in War – 3
Incidents in European Conflict – 4
Earthquake Rocks Buildings in Philadelphia; Tremors Felt From New Jersey to Maryland – 5
The International Situation – 6
Soviet Plane Reported Shot Down In ‘Incidents’ on Finland’s Border – 6-8
Japanese Attack Near Indo-China – 9-10

[abb]

http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1939/nov39/f15nov39.htm

Nazis confront Prague demonstrations
Wednesday, November 15, 1939 www.onwar.com

In Occupied Czechoslovakia... There are large-scale demonstrations at the funeral of Jan Opletal, a medical student who was mortally wounded in Prague on October 28th. Police forces (possibly including elements of the Gestapo) make numerous arrests of Czech nationalist protesters. Casualty reports range from 12 injured to suggestions of summary executions.

In Berlin... German Foreign Minister, von Ribbentrop, formally rejects the offer of Belgium-Dutch mediation made by King Leopold and Queen Wilhelmina in meetings with official representatives. He states that as a result of the “blunt rejection” of the German peace appeal by Britain and France, the German government considers the matter closed.

In France... Three hours are added to the working week, making it 43 hours long.

In China... Japanese forces capture the port of Pakhoi.

In the Indian Ocean... The German pocket-battleship Admiral Graf Spee sinks the British tanker Africa Shell south of Madagascar.

[abb]

http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?102011

MV Africa Shell [+1939]

[beebuster2000]

you have to love the fins. i wonder when the russians actually invaded and how long that war took? i guess the US looked the other way, hoping to keep stalin on board? be curious how the current border of finland relates to the border when WW2 broke out. have the finns ever got their teritory back?

fascinating article on how japan views the situation. pearl harbor is two years away, but japan is calling out the US as a possible war adversary, but only after Germany finishes off the europeans. just guessing but i bet the Japanese thought that after Hitler got as far as Moscow suburbs in december 1941, that the war was pretty much over so they could attack. oops.

also, fascinating that the Japanese dont see the US Navy as a credible opponent. In this they were pretty much right, up until 1944 the USN had poorer ships, planes. By then of course, US production kicked in and the US produced in that year alone new ships, carriers, planes greater than the entire Japanese Navy, essentially producing a new Navy per year. The Japanese were unable to replace their losses. Interesting statistic, but the US produced over 400,000 combat planes in WW2. the japanese around 50,000.

I guess the other lesson from the Japanese 1939 view is that weakness invites attack.

[Homer_J_Simpson]

In the Indian Ocean... The German pocket-battleship Admiral Graf Spee sinks the British tanker Africa Shell south of Madagascar.

Front page story, but not until day after tomorrow. And the attacker is not identified. Rumored to be "one of the three German pocket battleships." Rumors discounted by "experts."

[abb]

Had Hitler carried through with his invasion of England in the fall of ‘40, would it have succeeded?

What do you think?

[Homer_J_Simpson]

you have to love the fins. i wonder when the russians actually invaded and how long that war took?

The Red Army will be enjoying a white Christmas in Finland. Excursion scheduled to begin at the end of November. They may be having a white Valentine's day, also. The survivors's, anyway.

i guess the US looked the other way, hoping to keep stalin on board?

I'm not sure we considered Stalin to be on board at this point.

[Homer_J_Simpson]

Had Hitler carried through with his invasion of England in the fall of ‘40, would it have succeeded?

Not with the way the Battle of Britain went. The RAF would have controlled the air and the Royal Navy would have had a field day. And by then the British home army was well organized to fend off an invasion, either a large force at one point or several small simultaneous landings.

Or so says Churchill and I won't argue with his analysis.

[abb]

An interesting think to think of is that often military leaders often “lose the victory” by not exploiting a breakthrough. Had Hitler had a plan to follow through after Dunkirk, things might have been different.

The victory over France was so swift, it surprised everyone, I suspect. Hitler never really put together a real plan for operation Sea Lion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sealion

[beebuster2000]

some historians think hitler let the brits of easy at dunkirk hoping that if they avoided total humiliation they would settle with him.
you get the impression that even hitler is alarmed at the big war he has started.

[beebuster2000]

just read some finland history. hadnt realized that they were actually part of russia until the 1918 revolution, then fought a civil war internally between the rightists and the reds, executed a bunch of “reds” so there was a lot of bad blood and history there.

at the end of ww2, they had to cede a 10% of their country to the reds, they got a small part back in the 50’s, but to this day the russians have a chunk, particularly the all weather port.

but as a country, finalnd is a 20th century appearance. most of its histpory it was part of sweden or russia.

who knew?

[abb]

Good point. Like most bullies, Hitler may have been shocked when the Brits (led by Churchill) decided to not roll over.

[BroJoeK]

"[On] November 15, 1939, when Hitler was trying vainly to buck up his generals to launch an attack in the West, Raeder instructed the Naval War Staff to examine “the possibility of invading England, a possibility arising if certain conditions are fulfilled by the further course of the war.” It was the first time in history that any German military staff had been asked even to consider such an action. "

Almost certainly not true. In his 2004 book "Target America," James Duffy discusses German military contingency plans -- called Winterarbeiten -- going as far back as the late 1800s -- for a German invasion of the United States!

Duffy does not mention German plans to invade Britain, but it's hard to imagine they would assign staff officers for the US invasion until after they had fully examined requirements to invade a more likely future enemy, much closer to home.

[BroJoeK]

"Had Hitler carried through with his invasion of England in the fall of ‘40, would it have succeeded?"

Just compare Operation Sealion in 1940 with Operation Overload in 1944:

Troops to land, 1st day:

Sealion: nine divisions with airborne, 67,000 men to land first day.

Overlord: nine reinforced divisions, including three airborne, 175,000 men to land first day.

Transport:

Sealion:

Overlord:

Air and naval superiority:

Sealion: none
Overlord: total

Following waves:

Sealion: German Army Groups A & C = 13 divisions, maybe 300,000 troops.

Overlord: three army groups, over 2,000,000 troops.

[abb]

And remember too, Goering had convinced Hitler the Luftwaffe could reduce England to surrender via air power alone, IIRC. I just don’t think Hitler’s heart was really keen on an invasion of the UK.

His personality was when he set his mind on doing something, it got done, regardless of outcome.

[Homer_J_Simpson]

The photo of the D-Day beachhead is amazing. They had way more barrage balloons aloft than the Luftwaffe had available aircraft. That is assuming the scene in “The Longest Day,” where the two planes make a pass over the beach, is accurate.

[PzLdr]

No. Aside from being unable to establish air superiority, let alone air supremacy over the Channel, the German Navy had taken too many losses in Norway, particularly in destroyers and cruisers, to support the size of an invasion envisaged by the Army. Additionally, the Germans lacked sufficient support craft [freighters, tankers, etc] to support the ground troops, and lacked landing craft to accomplish the invasion.

Plus, like their Fuehrer, the German Army might be heroes on land, but were cowards at sea. They wanted no part of an invasion of Britain; and planned an invasion of a sufficiently large scale that they knew the Navy couldn't handle.