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GERMANS IN PART OF WARSAW, POLES ARE RESISTING (9/9/39)
Microfiche-New York Times archives, McHenry Library, U.C. Santa Cruz | 9/9/39 | Frederick T. Birchall, Guido Enderis, G.H. Archambault, Raymond Daniell, Felix Belair Jr.

Posted on 09/09/2009 5:44:05 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson

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EDITORIAL





TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: milhist; realtime; worldwarii
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To: dfwgator

Is that a good movie? It is frequently on the Independent Film Channel. If it is worthwhile this would be a good time to catch it.


21 posted on 09/09/2009 11:58:00 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
The 4th Army (von Kluge) captures Lodz and Radom, as the 4th Panzer Division reaches the outskirts of Warsaw. Further penetrations in to the suburbs of Warsaw by the 4th Panzer Divisions are repulsed by the cities defenders.

Something there is not working for me. Lodz is WSW of Warsaw and appears to have been surrounded by the 8th and 10th, and Radom is S of Warsaw and clearly surrounded by the 10th Army. If that's an error, we ought to let those guys over at worldwar-2.net know.

22 posted on 09/09/2009 12:04:39 PM PDT by CougarGA7 (My tagline is an honor student at Free Republic Elementary School.)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

Blaskowitz ran afoul of the Fuehrer when he was military governor of Poland. He was outraged by SS [and Army] atrocities committed against the civilian population. His efforts to courtmartial SS troops for atrocities led to their being withdrawn from Army control for disciplinary purposes. Two memoranda he wrote [one to Hitler, one to Brauchitsch] led to the appointment of Hans Frank as head of the Polish Government General, and the relief of Blaskowitz from his military assignment.


23 posted on 09/09/2009 12:09:53 PM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

It’s pretty interesting that he was in charge of the defense of southern France in 44. He ended up against Generals Patch and deLattre under Devers Army group.


24 posted on 09/09/2009 12:13:41 PM PDT by CougarGA7 (My tagline is an honor student at Free Republic Elementary School.)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

I have not seen the Pianist yet, but that nice Polish woman that was in my cardiac rehab (the one that was in a Nazi concentration camp as a child) told me that the Pianist is very good, and very close to how things really were. She then looked at me and said the movie Schindler’s List was not as accurate as the Pianist. I got the impression that she thought Schindler’s List was not even close.


25 posted on 09/09/2009 12:16:20 PM PDT by CougarGA7 (My tagline is an honor student at Free Republic Elementary School.)
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To: CougarGA7
The 4th Army (von Kluge) captures Lodz and Radom

Now that you mention it, that looks unlikely. The last two times I have tried contacting worldwar-2.net they have failed to respond. Maybe I should just stop using them as a source. Everything I post from there seems to get covered by somebody else on the thread anyway. Usually in greater detail and, it seems, more accurately.

26 posted on 09/09/2009 12:18:07 PM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

Yeah, maybe so if they aren’t getting back to you. Peter Chen over at WW2DB will at least correspond back if it is significant. I would say having the German 4th Army in the wrong place would qualify.

Hey, while I’m thinking of it, did you get that copy of the Chicago Tribune I sent?


27 posted on 09/09/2009 12:28:04 PM PDT by CougarGA7 (My tagline is an honor student at Free Republic Elementary School.)
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To: CougarGA7
Well, I sent them a message, FWIW.

Yes, thank you, I did indeed receive the Chicago Tribune collection of images. Sorry I forgot to acknowledge them. They didn't exactly downplay their scoop, did they? So is the leaker unknown to this day?

28 posted on 09/09/2009 1:14:46 PM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

There is a lot of speculation as to who actually leaked the plans. It goes from General Wedemeyer who actually helped write it to General Hap Arnold or perhaps even FDR himself. Its a pretty interesting case that I’ve decided to dig deeper into for a research paper. I figured I was going to take a closer look at it anyway, I might as well get a grade out of it.


29 posted on 09/09/2009 1:27:07 PM PDT by CougarGA7 (My tagline is an honor student at Free Republic Elementary School.)
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To: BroJoeK
•The final comment, urging no peace without victory, is most interesting — likely reflecting nothing more than pure ignorance as to future perils faced by France and Britain.

My take on “no peace with out victory” is that WWI was a negotiated peace and thus never solved. WWII was only going to be settled with Unconditional Surrender. Japan and Germany thought they could sue for peace like in WWI but they were wrong.
30 posted on 09/09/2009 1:45:29 PM PDT by PeterPrinciple ( Seeking the truth here folks.)
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To: CougarGA7; PzLdr

“Early on the 9th the Eighth Army took the offensive against the line of the Bzura. Unclarified though the situation was on the army’s front, von Blaskowitz, in attacking, acted in accordance with an old German precept: In a doubtful situation the offensive is the best policy and the seizure of the initiative compensates for the weakness of one’s own force. The necessary corollary to this precept in the German doctrine is that reinforcements must be provided to maintain any advantages gained. By utilizing the mobility of motorized and armored units, those reinforcements ultimately were provided, and were to turn a threatened disaster into victory.”

This description of German doctrine hearkens to an exchange PzLdr and I had yesterday.


31 posted on 09/09/2009 1:57:48 PM PDT by henkster (The frog has noticed the increase in water temperature)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

Blaskowitz was never one of Hitler’s favorites, probably because his 8th Army was the only unit that suffered a setback during Case White. I don’t think it was really his “fault” and you can’t say he mis-handled his troops, but I’m sure the Battle of the Bzura left a bad taste in Hitler’s mouth. After Poland Blaskowitz was relegated to obscure commands, including southern France in August 1944. By the time of Operation Anvil, the breakout from Normandy in Operation Cobra had already doomed the German strategic position in France. Most of Blaskowitz’ first line troops had already been sent to Normandy, so he was really left no option other than high-tailing it up the Rhone. He was able to defend the Vosges with odds and ends of his command. Late in 1944 and early 1945 he was shunted around from one set of map pins reflecting non-existent units to another.

History never really gave him an opportunity to show whether he was a decent commander or a bust.


32 posted on 09/09/2009 2:07:06 PM PDT by henkster (The frog has noticed the increase in water temperature)
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To: CougarGA7; Homer_J_Simpson

It’s gotta be a mistake. Kluge’s 4th Army had been stripped of panzers when Guderian’s XIX Pz. Corps was detached for his “end-around” to Brest-Litovsk. Kluge was left with foot infantry to press down on the Polish units fighting along the Bzura.

I think the author meant, or should have said, “10th Army (Reichenau).”


33 posted on 09/09/2009 2:11:43 PM PDT by henkster (The frog has noticed the increase in water temperature)
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To: CougarGA7

The future stars of the German Army are being born in Poland. Von Kluge: Destined to be a Field Marshal. His army led the dash to the Channel in France, was the hard fist of Army Group Center in Barbarossa, commanded Army Group Center from January 1941 through 1944, where he commanded the northern half of the abortive Kursk offensive, and never allowed his front to suffer a major penetration. Later defended France, was led to believe he’d been implicated in the July 20, 1944 plot to kill Hitler, committed suicide on the way back to the Reich.

Von Reichenau: I already discussed a few days ago. Also held a Field Marshal’s baton. Led 6th Army in Belgium, France and Russia. Died of a heart attack in 1942.

Von Rundstedt: Old line Prussian officer, also a Field Marshal. Held many important commands in France and Russia and France again, even though Hitler often used him as a figurehead.

Von Bock: Commanded the armies in Belgium, and Army Group Center in Barbarossa. Sacked in favor of Kluge, he briefly commanded Army Group South after the death of Reichenau.

Kuechler: Commanded 16th Army in Barbarossa and later Army Group North during the bitter defensive battles of 1944.

Guderian: Commanded XIX Panzer Corps in the dash to the Channel, 2nd Panzer Group in Barbarossa, later Inspector General of Armored Forces and Chief of General Staff.

Hermann Hoth: Commanded 4th Panzer Group, later 4th Panzer Army, for most of the fighting in Russia.

Down at the staff, regimental and division level are many many more that don’t get the ink now, but will later. Men such as von Manstein, Model, Nehring, Kempf....


34 posted on 09/09/2009 2:22:19 PM PDT by henkster (The frog has noticed the increase in water temperature)
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To: PzLdr
Blaskowitz ran afoul of the Fuehrer when he was military governor of Poland. He was outraged by SS [and Army] atrocities committed against the civilian population. His efforts to courtmartial SS troops for atrocities led to their being withdrawn from Army control for disciplinary purposes.

This sounds something like the plot of the movie Night of the Generals, starring Peter O'Toole, Omar Sharif and Donald Pleasance, which starts with atrocities in Poland by a Nazi SS General, then moves to occupied Paris, and finally to postwar Germany.

35 posted on 09/09/2009 2:45:36 PM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla ("men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." -- Edmund Burke)
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla

Actually, if you look closely in “Night of the Generals”, Tanz [played by O’Toole] is a German Army General in the beginning of the movie [Warsaw]. He doesn’t appear in the uniform of a Waffen SS General until the latter part of the movie. France during 1944. The Waffen SS Division Tanz commands in the fkick, “Niebelungen’, actually existed, but was formed later. And the Divisional insignia is wrong.


36 posted on 09/09/2009 3:07:08 PM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: henkster

Rommel: Commander of the Fuehrerbegleitkommando.


37 posted on 09/09/2009 3:09:22 PM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: henkster

Hoeppner, CG, Panzergruppe Three.


38 posted on 09/09/2009 3:09:59 PM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: henkster

I forgot Kesselring, CG, Airflotte 1. Soon to be a Marshal, and C in C Mediterraenean, Final commander, AG West.


39 posted on 09/09/2009 3:11:20 PM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: PzLdr

Not bad for Hollywood. I am a fan of classical history, and they usually butcher the details of that period.


40 posted on 09/09/2009 3:15:13 PM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla ("men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." -- Edmund Burke)
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