BRITAIN AND FRANCE IN WAR AT 6 A. M. (9/3/39)

Microfiche-New York Times archives, McHenry Library, U.C. Santa Cruz | 9/3/39 | Neville Chamberlain, Arno Dosch-Fleurot, John Gunther, John MacCormac, Otto D. Tolischus

[Homer_J_Simpson]

I wonder if Hitler may have “held back” from engaging the French and British in hopes that he could take over the rest of Europe and then sign new treaties with them later.

I just watched Part 2 of Wouk's "Winds of War" miniseries. In that portrayal Hitler was determined to launch Case Yellow (the invasion of France) early in November 1939. It was only the military and meteorological realities that caused it to be postponed 19 times until the spring.

[GeronL]

I guess I should have reminded myself who was PM then

[wagglebee]

That’s interesting. It doesn’t surprise me that Hitler thought that Chamberlain would renegotiate for peace, but I never understood how he thought Churchill would go for that.

[wagglebee]

I’ve read a lot about Chamberlain and I just don’t get how he ever stayed in office as long as he did.

I’m not of the camp that believes that the war could have been avoided without appeasement, but I do believe that it ultimately made the early years of the war a lot worse for the UK.

Chamberlain was diagnosed with stomach cancer and died in 1940, but before his diagnosis he actually believed that it would be a short war and that he would become PM again after the war.

[GeronL]

I just listened to the second sound file... Neville does seem like a peacenik doesn’t he?

[CougarGA7]

...but I wonder if Hitler may have “held back” from engaging the French and British in hopes that he could take over the rest of Europe and then sign new treaties with them later.

That's half correct. He had every intentions following through with an invasion of France. In fact he was so intent on immediately attacking France that he issued Directive No.6 for the conduct of war on October 9th as things finished up in Poland:

(a) An offensive will be planned on the northern flank of the Western Front, through Luxembourg, Belgium, and Holland. This offensive must be launched at the earliest possiple moment and in greatest possible strength.

(b) The purpose of this offensive will be to defeat as much as possible of the French Army and of the forces of the allies fighting on their side, and at the same time to win as much territory as possible in Holland, Belgium, and Northern France to serve as a base for the successful prosecution of the air and sea war against England and as a wide protective area for the economically vital Ruhr.

He didn't have a plan for invading England though. He felt that if France fell that he wouldn't have to since an isolated England would be open to peace talks. Winston Churchill of course would have none of that so reluctantly, Hitler finally ordered the planning for Operation Sea Lion. So he did have some designs on a peace treaty, but only with Britain.

[GeronL]

I think it was the Parliament that did it. He went along because he wanted to stay PM but his heart was not in war. He stayed in office by doing what the majority wanted but just barely. As little as possible. That was the ‘phony war’ I guess.

[TADSLOS]

I just listened to the second sound file... Neville does seem like a peacenik doesn’t he?

The man thoroughly believed his own hype and was immersed in the fantasy.

[CougarGA7]

Truly in those audios he sounds crestfallen to me. I think he honestly believed that he could prevent war. I think the blinders being lifted last March after the rump of Czechoslovakia was absorbed really was quite a blow. His ideals of appeasement had failed and everything here was just going through the motions. I hear a broken man.

[tcrlaf]

“I got to imagine it already feels hopeless for those units in the field.”

To say the least...
Polish commanders are losing control of their units, all the way down to battalion and company levels at this point.

Individual units are still putting up stiff resistence at points, but they have no organized support. The Generals in Warsaw passing out orders to commands they don’t know don’t exist, anymore. Withdrawing units have left supplies behind in the retreat, and are running out of ammo and fuel.

And everyone is trying to get through to Modlin, Warsaw, or Lvov. Chaos on the roads, refugees clogging arterys, and realizing that you can only move at night, because come dawn those roving bands of fighter aircraft will be returning to harrass the columns...

[CougarGA7]

One of the things that the Germans did very effectively at the onset of the war was destroy the Polish communication lines. To do this they made good use of 5th column personnel that they already had in place as well as paratroopers that were dropped behind the lines solely for that purpose. It made it almost impossible for the Polish HQ in Warsaw to coordinate any type of real defense between the separate divisions.

[dfwgator]

There were even then still plenty in The Conservative Party that wanted no part of war. Even when Churchill took over, he was under constant threat of removal by his own party.

[GeronL]

Wow. I could not fathom how you’d take that position after ships are being sunk and stuff.

[henkster]

There is a great discussion on “The Phony War” in Ernest May’s “Strange Victory.” The French military leadership pretty much expected that with the British Naval blockade, they could sit it out behind the Maginot Line and Hitler’s Germany would just dry up and blow away without any real fighting.

I will post excerpts from that book during the coming months. Probably start in a day or two as we see the French “strategy” unfold.

[BroJoeK]

Let's see if Wiki lets us use their bandwidth.. ;-)

German Panzer I, 5.4 tons, crew: 2, a total of 1,900 produced before the war:

"Design of the Panzer I began in 1932 and mass production in 1934. Although intended only as a training tank to introduce the concept of armored warfare to the German Army, the Panzer I saw combat in Spain during the Spanish Civil War, in Poland, France, Soviet Union and North Africa during the Second World War, and even in China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Based on experience gathered during the Spanish Civil War, the Panzer I helped shape the German armored corps used to invade Poland in 1939 and France in 1940."

German Panzer II, 7.2 tons, crew: 3, about 1,200 produced by 1939:

"The Panzer II was used in the German campaigns in Poland, France, the Low Countries, Denmark, Norway, North Africa and the Eastern Front. After being removed from front-line duty, it was used for training and on secondary fronts. The chassis was used for a number of self-propelled guns including the Wespe and Marder II."

Panzer 38(t) Czech built, 9.7 tons, crew: 4, about 150 available in 1939:

"The Panzer 38(t) performed well in the Polish campaign in 1939 and the Battle of France in 1940. It was much better armed than the Panzer I and Panzer II tanks. It was on par with most light tank designs of the era, although it was unable to effectively engage the frontal armour of medium, heavy and infantry tank designs."

Enough for today, need to leave something for next time. ;-)

[BroJoeK]

Here are the Polish "tankettes."

The TK (TK-3) and TKS were Polish tankettes during the Second World War.

"The 575 TK/TKS tankettes formed the bulk of the Polish armoured forces before the outbreak of war. They suffered heavy losses during the Invasion of Poland, often being the only armoured fighting vehicles available. Due to their light armament of a single machine gun, they stood no chance in combat against German tanks, except the Panzer I, but their small size suited them for reconnaissance and infantry support. Only the handful of tankettes armed with 20 mm guns had a fighting chance against the enemy tanks; in one instance on 18 September 1939 a 20 mm gunned TKS commanded by sergeant Roman Orlik destroyed three German Panzerkampfwagen 35(t) tanks."

The Hotchkiss H35 or Char léger modèle 1935 H was a French light tank developed prior to World War II -- 11 met tons, crew: 2.

"Three Hotchkiss tanks of the "H 39" version had been exported to Poland in July of 1939 for testing by the Polish Bureau of Technical Studies of Armoured Weapons (pl. Biuro Badań Technicznych Broni Pancernych). During the Invasion of Poland in 1939 the Hotchkiss tanks together with three Renault R 35 tanks were incorporated into in an ad hoc "half company" unit of lieutenant J.Jakubowicz formed on 14 September 1939 in Kiwerce, Poland. The unit joined the task force "Dubno" and lost all of its tanks during the marches and fighting with German and Soviet armies and Ukrainian insurgents."

[Homer_J_Simpson]

need to leave something for next time

Good idea to leave something in reserve. It could be a long war.

Unless the Brits and French go crawling to Hitler and let him keep Poland.

[Lucius Cornelius Sulla]

Interesting article on killing the poisonous London zoo reptiles and spiders. Gives one an idea of Great Britain’s state of mind at the time.

Later in the article it says pet owners were having their pets put down, especially dogs, which would be frightened by aerial attacks. When you consider how the Brits love their pets this was clearly based on memories of WWI, only 21 years earlier.

[CougarGA7]

Yeah, I think your right. Long war ahead. I have some numbers on those tanks but I’ll hold off going over that until May 10th.

But who knows. Maybe the French will go blowing through the Saar any day now and march right into Berlin. This could be over in a jiff.

[dfwgator]

80 year bump.