Apple to Microsoft: Stop with the ads (Apple look like losers while MSFT laughs)

Seattle Slimes ^ | July 15, 2009 | Sharon Chan

[max americana]

> I find it amazing that Apple is satisfied with the ten percent market share that they have. Would most likely be north of 50 percent if they dropped their prices. People would jump ship on Windows bloatware in droves.<

Good post, mysterio. Indeed, If Apple did that I believe that there would be a wave of new customers that would purchase a Mac. I guess we’re stuck as “poor Windows dregs” who are not worthy of the “Apple snobs” on FR.;)

[Nateman]

The third choice is Linux. It has become quite easy to use but I mostly recommend it for people are computer fans. The possibilities for tinkering are endless!

[cabojoe]

I’m running it on a 3.8 Ghz i7...it’s really enjoyable. :)

[cabojoe]

You imply that Mac users are deluded and therefor somehow mentally ill, incapable of seeing reality.

Those are your words, not mine. I'd say most apple users around here are straight up fine folks.

[Swordmaker]

Those are your words, not mine.

Here are your words:

Thank you for the rare trip through the reality distortion field inside an Apple user’s head. Your synergy zen ying/yang paragraph is a hoot, a real keeper.

Reality is distorted. That is delusion. That is a mental illness. It is getting very tiresome to continually be told that we Mac users are deluded, living in a "reality distortion field" in side our heads. That is an ad hominem attack against all Mac users. Your own words imply all of that.

[cabojoe]

an Apple user’s head... in other words, your head. Your whole post came right from your head. Nothing substantial. No benchmarks. All about feelings. That's OK though. Feelings are cool.

I hope that in real life you don't go around calling everything an ad hominem attack. I'm really starting to wonder.

[Tribune7]

The biggest problem is that my wife is used to Windows and she is not a computer geek,

That's a very, very good reason to stick with Windows.

[rabidralph]

Maybe you'll like this ad better?

[Swordmaker]

an Apple user’s head... in other words, your head. Your whole post came right from your head. Nothing substantial. No benchmarks. All about feelings. That's OK though. Feelings are cool.

I hope that in real life you don't go around calling everything an ad hominem attack.

It waddles, it quacks, it's got feathers... it's a duck. In this instance, your comments were ad hominem attacks.

I wrote about the subjective experiences with the Mac system. You wrote about what you perceive are MY failings, my "reality distortion field," and my foibles. Your comments about "reality distortion"—implying a disconnect from reality, and being in my head or all Apple users' heads are—by definition, ad hominem.

You were attacking, denigrating, and implying negative attributes to the person holding the opinion or presenting the facts, with the intent of having other readers or participants in the discussion discount his statements as somehow damaged—rather than discussing the topic.

Incidentally, that comment of yours about me "calling everything an ad hominem attack" is also a back-handed form of ad hominem, implying that I may practice a compulsive approach to all public discourse. It misrepresents my postings on FR—or perhaps just on these Mac threads—as though, because I called YOU on your ad hominem approach to discussions, it is something I do in all posts.

If, in "real life," I find people using similar tactics, I will call them on it, just as I am calling you on it.

About "feelings." Liberals "feel," conservatives "think." My opinions are knowledgeable, expert opinions as I am a 30 year professional in the computer industry working on multiple platforms (I make the majority of my income from keeping Windows PCs up and running for multiple clients). My post, that you claim is all about "feelings" came from a person who has a larger world view, at least in computers, than I think you and many other PC users have, because I USE both platforms.

I am equally experienced in the two different computing philosophies... and my considered, experienced opinion is that one produces a far better user experience than the other. My opinions are based on experience that is not based on just playing around with the Mac at a friend's house, reading forums filled with opinions from people whose sole experience with a Mac is listening to other equally ignorant commentators, or looking at one for 20 minutes at the Apple store. My opinions are based on years of hands-on experience with BOTH platforms; they are not opinions based on what I've heard from others who have the about the same level of experience with Macs that the average Windows PC user has, i.e. none.

My opinion about Macs providing a better user experience is based not only on my own experiences but the experiences of those people whom I have assisted in making the transition from the Windows world to the Mac world of computing... and their comments, appreciation, and actions when they begin telling their friends about how much more than enjoy the Mac than they did their old Windows computers.

[cabojoe]

I’m not even going to bother reading your post before posting this. I’ve watched your act for years. I just got the ad hominem act bit. Now I’ve got the full page novel. I expected it. Try to spin me as a bad guy. I’m surprised I didn’t get pictures too. This is how you try to neuter people that don’t agree with you that Apple is the almighty. I’m glad I don’t have to spend my life defending a computer. Now I’m going to go out and work on my fishin boat. Try to relax.

[Swordmaker]

No need to be rude.

Jenn, I am not intending to be rude... I asked you a question about when you last looked at a Mac. If it's got pretty colors, it's a first generation iMac, made from 1998 through 2001. You state as a fact that Macs are all about style over function. I challenge you on that. My point was that your experience is obviously extremely limited as far as Macs go. It is likely that your parent's Mac is still running OS 9... a ten year old OS.

Would you judge Windows on Windows ME?

[antiRepublicrat]

I find it amazing that Apple is satisfied with the ten percent market share that they have.

It's probably because they're raking in relatively more profits than OEMs with much higher marketshare. Dell made around 700 million in 2008's last quarter while Apple raked in over a billion, but Dell has three times the marketshare.

[Swordmaker]

I asked you what you were often paying a couple of hundred bucks for with Macs. You replied:

Operating system upgrades, for one. At least with MS, you get patches every once in a while, or some productivity enhancement.

Apple's major OS X Operating system POINT level upgrades (OSX.2 Jaguar —> OSX.3 Panther —> OSX.4 Tiger —> OSX.5 Leopard) are usually $129, not $200, when first released... and those are the equivalent of upgrading from Windows98 to WindowsXP to Windows Vista to Windows7. Microsoft charged for those major upgrades as well.

In between the paid POINT updates for Mac OSX, you got many FREE multiple upgrades, each equivalent to a Microsoft Service Pack that provided patches and productivity enhancement for your Macs OS and all of the other Apple software.

If your PowerbookTI is the last 2003 model, it came with OSX.2. You would have had to only buy 3 full OS upgrades to bring it up to OSX.5 Leopard (all of the PowerBook G4 Titanium's can run Leopard!). However, in the meantime, you GOT patches and upgrades. You got eight upgrades for OSX.2 Jauguar, nine upgrades for OSX.3 Panther, eleven upgrades for OSX.4 Tiger, and seven Upgrades so far for OSX.5 Leopard (8 is not seeded in release candidate). That's a total of at least 35 FREE upgrades to Mac OS X during your ownership of your PowerBookTI G4. If your TI is the first TI, then you may have had four paid upgrades and 44 FREE upgrades.

Mac I’m using now is a G4 Titanium, which is still pretty old I guess.

Yes, your TI Powerbook was first introduced in 2001 and were discontinued in 2003. So it could be 7 to 8 years old.

[Swordmaker]

Now go and make money with your mac.

Thanks... I do and have.

[Swordmaker]

I’m not even going to bother reading your post before posting this. I’ve watched your act for years. I just got the ad hominem act bit. Now I’ve got the full page novel. I expected it. Try to spin me as a bad guy. I’m surprised I didn’t get pictures too. This is how you try to neuter people that don’t agree with you that Apple is the almighty. I’m glad I don’t have to spend my life defending a computer. Now I’m going to go out and work on my fishin boat. Try to relax.

Ah, the ultimate ad hominem dismissal... the poster is not even worthy of having the post read. OK. Have fun fishing.

[Swordmaker]

It's probably because they're raking in relatively more profits than OEMs with much higher marketshare. Dell made around 700 million in 2008's last quarter while Apple raked in over a billion, but Dell has three times the marketshare.

How much more do those making a lower return have to sell and how much harder do they have to work to earn what Apple is earning with its smaller market share?

"Though Dell managed to ship 18 percent more consumer PCs for the quarter, because consumers are gravitating toward cheaper notebooks and Netbooks, revenue dropped 17 percent."

Apple is not in business to work harder to sell more computers at a lower profit to just break even with what they are making right now. That's what they would have to do by cutting prices and profit margins.

• Apple has 35,000 employees, Dell Computer has 76,500.
• Apple shipped 9.92 million computers, Dell shipped 43.1 million.
• Apple's 2008 Revenue was $34.5 Billion, Dell's was $61.1 Billion,
• Apple's 2008 profit was $4.8 Billion, Dell's 2008 profit revenues was $2.5 Billion.
• Apple's net profit margin for May '09 is 14.85%. Dell Computer's is 2.35%.
• Apple's Market Cap is $136 Billion. Dell's is $25 Billion.

Dell is having to employ twice the work force to sell four times the computers to generate almost twice the revenue to spin off HALF the profits. Looks to me that Apple would be crazy to trade positions by lowering prices and thereby margins.

[mysterio]

Dell much makes computers. Apple's profits include phones and IPods, which have to be a pretty significant chunk of that money.

While those are overpriced as well, they are not as ridiculously overpriced as Apple's computers are. The IPod / IPhone were great ideas and have done a lot for Apple's image.

That being said, I find it amusing that Apple fans always bristle at the idea of Apple doing anything but the status quo when it comes to price and market share. Most will defend the 10 percent share to the death, and yet Apple is still spending a ton to advertise its computers. The OS is better than Windows. The problem is that it isn't two or three times better than Windows. But the price generally is.

I had to chuckle when Apple ran the I'm a Mac series, because that was seriously good advertising. But one can't deny that the Windows response nailed it. When you're a kid in an economic recession and don't really have money, getting a comparable computer at a fraction of the price is the name of the game. When you're a technology company and your demographic is youth, it's not the best strategy for selling your machines.

They are floating Windows 7 soon. I haven't seen it yet, but to guess it will be a piece of resource-hogging bloatware isn't too risky of a theory. Apple still has a shot, although they pissed away the Vista disaster, and that was the best time to strike.

It's as simple as cutting the price. If they don't, I certainly hope they at least hold on to their ten percent niche market They have a good product and I don't want to see them fail.

[JenB987]

My parents’ Mac is 2 years old.

And no, I don’t own one so my experience is limited to using other people’s Macs.

I don’t like the programming and I don’t like having to completely rethink how to use a computer. It runs slow even though it’s been cleared of junk files numerous times.

I owned 3 iPods, one of which was a rip off because the battery lasted 1 year before it wouldn’t work unless it was plugged in somewhere. I took it to an Apple store where they wanted $125 to put a new battery in. I told them to buzz off. I said I would go somewhere else. They told me if I did that it would void the warranty and I may not be able to have a future problem fixed. I said that’s laughable because I have to have this problem solved before I can find a new one. I now have an iTouch, which is cool, however it’s not worth what my dumb behind paid for it. It gets hot after 25 minutes of use, almost to the point where I can’t touch it. Called Apple about that and they told me I was running it too long(?!)

Bottom line for me is that Apple products are overpriced and their customer service is terrible.

When I have 2 PC’s, a 6 year old laptop and a desktop that work 99.9% of the time I turn them on, why would I switch to something that frustrates me to no end with customer service that, to be fair, is disgraceful?

[Mr. Blonde]

Haven’t we seen articles that Apple couldn’t keep 13 in. Macbook Pros on the shelf? Wouldn’t those be the ones young people are most interested in? Maybe young people see that a Mac will last longer than what you consider a comparable PC and think they will ultimately get their moneys worth.

[Swordmaker]

My parents’ Mac is 2 years old.

So why the remark about "colorful" Macs? I inferred from that comment that your parents' have an early 1st Generation iMac because they were the only "colorful" Macs aside from the famous "toilet seat cover" clamshell G3 iBook Mac laptops of the same vintage.

Apple iMac G3 models, available from 1998 to 2003.


which came in beautiful fruit colors among others.


The Clamshell G3 iBook, sometimes
referred to as the "Toilet Seat Cover."
Available from July 1999 to May 2001.

After these models were discontinued, Apple Macs were generally Titanium, Aluminum, or polycarbonate White, Gray, or Black.

It runs slow even though it’s been cleared of junk files numerous times.

What "junk files" are you clearing out? Especially in just two years?

Macs don't slow down with increasing cruft like Windows computers do. I've never found it necessary to throw away "junk" off of a Mac. Nor do the applications on Macs leave pieces of themselves all over the place in odd locations. In addition there is no Registry to get filled with left-overs and unconnected junk to slow down the system. Macs HDs don't get fragmented. Macs usually run just as fast two and three years later as they did on the first day. In fact, as the Mac OSX is upgraded the same hardware tends to run faster.

That being said, too many icons on the desk top CAN slow down a Mac, but not by much. I have a friend who has a couple of hundred icons piled on his desktop. Can you say CROWDED? He also keeps every single eMail he receives—including spam—and, when he has some spare time, files them away. His eMail in box, last I looked had over 4,000 unread messages. I've suggested that it's time for him to declare email bankruptcy. He still gets very good speed from his four year old G5 iMac.

The other thing that can slow a Mac is too little RAM with too many applications running. Trying to use a Mac with 512M of RAM with 20 to 30 apps running can result in churning of the HD as apps are switched in and out of virtual memory.

I owned 3 iPods, one of which was a rip off because the battery lasted 1 year before it wouldn’t work unless it was plugged in somewhere. I took it to an Apple store where they wanted $125 to put a new battery in. I told them to buzz off. I said I would go somewhere else. They told me if I did that it would void the warranty and I may not be able to have a future problem fixed. I said that’s laughable because I have to have this problem solved before I can find a new one. I now have an iTouch, which is cool, however it’s not worth what my dumb behind paid for it. It gets hot after 25 minutes of use, almost to the point where I can’t touch it. Called Apple about that and they told me I was running it too long(?!)

I think you might be exaggerating a tad, Jen. First of all, Apple never charged $125 to replace an iPod battery. For a while they would not replace the battery at all, holding a policy that you would have to buy a replacement iPod. That didn't go over too well with customers whose batteries had died. Nature and economics abhors a vacuum; by only one year after the 1st Generation iPod was released in late 2001, there were numerous online companies selling do-it-yourself batteries, kits, and instructions, or offering iPod battery replacement services for under $50. When Apple finally established their own iPod battery replacement service in 2003, the price was $99. In July 2005, Apple dropped their price to $59 plus $6.95 shipping. If you took it into an Apple Store, the shipping charge was not charged. They also offered a $59 extended iPod warranty that covered batteries for an additional year. Secondly, Jen, if your iPod lasted, as you said, 1 year, then they would not have told your replacing the battery would void the warranty because iPods only had a one year warranty. . . and if the battery had failed within the one year warranty, Apple would have replaced it free of charge.

As to your claim of your iPod touch becoming almost too hot to touch, and being told by Apple that you " were running it too long," a small percentage of the first generation iPod touches DID have a problem... but the vast majority of those were related to charging issues and defective batteries, not overheating in operation. I cannot believe that an Apple representative told you that you "were running it too long." Apple replaced the far less than 1% of the iPods that had a problem with heat. Apple takes overheating very seriously, having recalled 29,000 laptop batteries because of just SIX complaints of overheating. I suggest you take it back to the Apple Store and insist on an exchange; there is something wrong with yours.

Your experience with customer service is certainly not what I, or my clients and friends, have experienced with Apple. Apple has the highest rating of ALL consumer electronics in customer service... beating out the closest competitor by several percentage points.

"ChangeWave's survey also asked recent buyers to rank their new PC purchase as being very satisfied, somewhat satisfied, somewhat unsatisfied, or very unsatisfied. Apple claimed the top spot with 81% saying they were very satisfied, compared to figures of 67% to 50% from other top PC manufacturers."—Source.

One of my clients took his Powerbook G4 notebook computer which was over ONE year out of the three year AppleCare plan, into an Apple store. After evaluating the problem, the Genius bar guy told him to go do some shopping or have lunch and come back. When he returned a couple hours later, they GAVE him a brand new MacBook Pro with all of his applications, files, and settings switched over... and they gave him back his old machine! No Charge.

Check out this user's experience at the Apple store:

What if Apple Stores Billed by the Hour?

. . . and read some of the comments left by our fellow freepers about their experiences with Apple.

Quite frankly, Jen, everything you've posted on this thread seems to have come almost verbatim out of the MicroSoft FUD playbook. At least you didn't trot out the "one-button mouse" chestnut.

On the other hand, I looked at your Freeper home page and agree with everything you posted there. Tell your husband that I am jealous of him... He's got a keeper! He's got nothing to worry about, though; my youngest daughter is seven years older than you are.

;^)>