Posted on 07/05/2009 1:32:21 PM PDT by SampleMan
IMO, a righteous beat down should have followed your verbal exchanges with the policemen.
Napoleons in uniform deserve a good whuppin, unfortunately THEY are considered better than you and you would be jailed for a large portion of your remaining life for setting the a-holes straight. I have a bunch of them on the list if-when shtf.
Resp 1
You may think I’m ‘making it up’; but that’s just how I read it.
Resp 2
A smart guy to them is someone who questions and challenges, in this case, their simple and reasonable (yes responsible, because it didn’t sound un-reasonable to me) request. A reply with the “I know my rights’ and the ‘I’m smarter than you’ rhetoric is only asking for trouble.
Resp 3
As for what my kids would have thought is irrelevant to this conversation for I wasn’t the one involved here, you were. And what matters is what your kids think of you having put them through this.
The police take a lot of crap from the under belly of society. If you are such an outstanding citizen, why would you lower your self to such behavior? Why the need to give them crap about something so... ridiculous?
If you really think they were out of line, take it up with city hall. I’m not sure what you’re going to gain by calling these guys out. In the end, I rather have the police on my side, and not be a thorn in the butt.
Lastly, as far as your ‘validate my personal behavior’ post here on FR, if can’t handle what the answer is going to be, don’t ask the question.
Best of luck to you.
Be grateful they didn’t shoot your dog.
I didn’t write that. God did.
why in god's name would you do that?
You continue to infer that I did things that I did not. What they told me required a complaint from the property owner, as they had opened up the area and I was doing no damage. I asked them if anyone had complained or if the property owner had so instructed them. They replied “No”.
This is absolutely no different than if I invited your family for a BBQ and the police stopped to tell your kids to get out of my tree. It is exactly the same principle.
I took my children to celebrate Independence Day. That means something to me. Your suggestion that we simply need to suck up indignities dished out by state agents is unacceptable to me. I've spent a lot of time at sea away from my family precisely so people don't have to do that. Only about 50% of Americans were really behind the Revolution, the others were willing to suck up the indignities. How you and I break out is clear.
So perhaps you would have been happy to be allowed to watch the pretty fireworks, but I was there to celebrate independence and liberty.
What I gain from calling these officers out in a calm but assertive manner for their bullying behavior is self-dignity and the respect of my children and I might add those who were around at the time, who came up afterward to voice support.
Your “better approach” of cowering to the police and then defying them behind their back is a behavior pattern that I despise.
Cower if you wish, many people do. But do not pretend that you are doing it out of civic duty, and don't seek cover in demanding that other people follow your lead.
As for making my children “suffer through that ordeal” as you put it, my children are strong intelligent young citizens. We had a long talk about the incident and why people must stand up for themselves in a decent and calm way. I also corrected my eldest’s assumption that all policeman are bullies, something she took away from their behavior.
Funny how you infer that a 20 year senior officer in the military must have an authority issue.
God did not write Romans. That said, please answer my question. How do you rectify the instruction to the Romans with our own Revolution or for that matter the actions of Moses?
For that matter how do you rectify the instruction given by Paul with the actions of Paul, which were not exactly ordained by the Roman Empire? I suggest that you look for a broader meaning.
Romans 13, Titus 1, 1 Peter 2. They all say the same thing. Submit yourselves to the authorities. Christians should not be anarchists.
This seems to be where the story took a turn for the worse. They were, in your view, rude from the outset and you don't do rude well, admittedly so.
Who was the last person to have an opportunity to avoid this trainwreck? IMO, that was you.
From my reading, you challenged their authority (deserved or not), in a crowded area, in which I am going to guess there was some degree of drunkenness (not on your part necessarily, but in the area).
Pick your battles better, that would be my take. By not keeping your opinions and comments to yourself, you (un)wittingly escalated the situation.
From your responses, you know you’ve done nothing wrong, and I’m fine with that. You asked for feed back, I gave you some. Different opinions is what makes the world go around and if you’re afraid of the answers, don’t ask questions.
IMO, a 20+ year service officer wouldn’t have made such a stink about something so trivial as you have. I think the wife gave you a bunch of shit about it, and you’ve posted on FR to seek approval from the community. Close?
I don’t think cops can make better parenting decisions than most parents. I think cops spend so much time cleaning up after the dregs of society and removing children from horrific circumstances and so little time with functional and normal people that they forget how to interact with the average citizen.
And that the media, who has specialized in demonizing the police for the last 40 years has affected the attitudes of the citizenry and the average LEO towards each other in such a fashion that an us vs them mentality is now the norm.
I think we need to embrace and socialize our police officers back into the community of free and functional independant responsible adults so that when we need them to push back against tyranny they side with the citizens and not the state.
And Capn Crunch definitely wins the best advice of the thread award.
(also as a mother of four, don’t be so sure that the example you think you were setting for your kids is the lesson they took from it. It seldom works the way we think because they see the world from their own child size prism and well of experience. You think you were demonstrating not being a sheeple, maybe they see it your way but maybe they just see it as Dad being rigid and on his hobby horse again).
All in the big picture. If I were generally a contrary jerk to people, then they might indeed think that it was something to do with a personal flaw of mine. However, I generally go out of my way to be a good citizen and am not quick to find fault with others. I don't bad mouth the police as a vocation to my children, nor do I pick arguments with people in public.
Right after this incident, my eleven year old asked, "Why were they so rude Daddy?" And as I said before, we talked about it later because I wanted them to understand what had occurred and why. They're smart kids, they got it.
Yes, I do know that I didn't do anything wrong, but I was bothered by the fact that the poor police conduct occurred. I was interested in finding out if my experience was unique, common or somewhere in the middle. I was also interested in hearing from some LEO's. Cap'n Crunch had some very good input concerning how best to handle such a situation. It was insightful and I'll use it if there is a next time.
Different opinions is what makes the world go around and if you’re afraid of the answers, don’t ask questions.
Now you are inferring fear? Interesting. Yes, I did want opinions. Your's has born out what I expected to see in about 10% of respondents, i.e. a knee-jerk reaction to discount the facts laid out, infer facts not in evidence and back blind allegiance to authority based on a badge.
IMO, a 20+ year service officer wouldn’t have made such a stink about something so trivial as you have. I think the wife gave you a bunch of shit about it, and you’ve posted on FR to seek approval from the community. Close?
My wife applauded my actions and would never expect me to kneel to a bully. I think you are a coward and are embarrassed and thus angry when other people's actions rub it in your face. Close?
Not an unruly or drunk crowd at all. Quite pleasant really. Other than that, you are both right and wrong.
Would I have ended the escalation by quickly acquiescing? Of course, but the same could be said of any rape. Do you tell a woman with a fat lip that she was the last one that had the opportunity to avoid the train-wreck? I doubt you would.
Why exactly is it provoking to ask for legal justification when ordered by armed agents of the state to do something? Its not like time was of the essence. They had plenty of time to discuss the situation like rational people.
I don't follow the reasoning that requiring them to provide justification, especially in a noncritical instance like this, is an attack.
Yes, they puffed up when I did it, but the real question I'm posing is not how to avoid such a confrontation at all costs (easy stay home), the question I'm posing is why do we have agents of the state first exceeding their authority and then becoming personally invested in forcing the outcome when they are simply asked to qualify their use of force.
Pick your battles better, that would be my take.
I think it was a good time and place for the officers to receive a civics lesson. I much prefer it to a non-crowded, isolated area where I have no witnesses and I have to take much stronger action and/or suffer worse consequences. Would you suggest waiting for a late night, roadside strip search of the misses to start finding my courage?
So the American Founding Fathers were acting in a non-Christian way when they formed a government based on the Christian principles of the Rights of Man? I really would like you to answer that one.
In any event, anarchy is the opposite of what my actions were. I wanted nothing more than the rule of law. The same law that those officers took an oath to follow and restrict themselves to.
If those officers had demanded my wallet, would I have a Christian obligation to hand it to them? If not why?
Also still looking for an answer on the rebellion shown to authority by Moses and toss in Joseph as well, who defied the mandate to put Jesus to death as an infant and fled to Egypt. Why wasn't Herod to be obeyed?
I’m just telling you what it says. My opinion is not relevant.
Rom 13:1-7 MKJV Let every soul be subject to the higher authorities. For there is no authority but of God; the authorities that exist are ordained by God. (2) So that the one resisting the authority resists the ordinance of God; and the ones who resist will receive judgment to themselves. (3) For the rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the bad. And do you desire to be not afraid of the authority? Do the good, and you shall have praise from it. (4) For it is a servant of God to you for good. For if you practice evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword in vain; for it is a servant of God, a revenger for wrath on him who does evil. (5) Therefore you must be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. (6) For because of this you also pay taxes. For they are God’s servants, always giving attention to this very thing. (7) Therefore give to all their dues; to the one due tax, the tax; tribute to whom tribute is due, fear to whom fear is due, and honor to whom honor is due.
Tit 3:1-2 MKJV Put them in mind to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to every good work, (2) to speak evil of no one, not being quarrelsome, but forbearing, showing all meekness to all men.
1Pe 2:13-16 MKJV Then be in obedience to every ordinance of men, because of the Lord, whether to a king as supreme, (14) or to governors as sent by Him for vengeance on evildoers, but for praise on well-doers. (15) For such is the will of God, doing good to silence the ignorance of foolish men; (16) as free, and not having freedom as a cover of evil, but as servants of God.
FWIW, right or wrong, successfully suing a cop is very, VERY difficult.
Thanks for your service in a (nearly) thankless job.
That's a major cop out (no pun intended). You are tossing out scripture for a reason. I've shown you clear contradiction in the acts of Moses and Jesus to the most strict interpretation of those instructions, and you refuse to address those contradictions.
I'm all ears.
I disagree that you gave the officers a civic lesson. To them you’re just another jerk making a thankless job more thankless.
I disagree that your interpretation of their request to remove your children from someone else’s pillar was an abuse of their authority.
I’m an owner of both residential and commercial property. As an owner of commercial property I pay a much higher property tax rate (and a carp load of other higher rates) to finance various public services including law enforcement. I also pay for shopkeeper’s liability insurance which is much steeper than homeowner’s liability insurance because businesses have a big fat target on them from unscrupulous lawyers and the social parasites that employ them.
From my perspective the cops would be doing what I want them to do. You know you’re an upright member of society, but neither the cops nor the absentee property owner knows that. Your actions represented potential harm from a phony negligence claim because there were no keep off signs on each and every pillar. You do not get to be the judge and jury on what represents potential harm to my business when I am not there. The cops do, who are charged with the specific duty of maintaing general public order and safety. And yes, they get to use their judgement on what that is on my property when I’m not present. You want to sit on my pillar in my open to the public parking lot, get prior permission, do not assume it on your own.
From my perspective as a small business owner on the standard parade route, you were wrong in your assumptions about what I as an absentee property owner would want the public doing on my property. I don’t care if you a great parent with great judgement or would never in a million years sue a business for your own mistakes, stay off my fence, my pillars, my planters, my whatever and stand (or sit in your own chairs) in the parking lot like everyone else. Or I may stop opening it up (or charge an entrance fee). And if the cops let you keep your older kids up there, it’s only a matter of time before some dumb ass puts a two year old up on another one or some drunk twenty something gets up on one to make a spectacle of himself and falls and breaks a leg. It’s basic broken windows theory of law enforcement. I’m sorry the cops didn’t politely articulate that to you and I agree that it’s wrong for them to be unmannerly, but your attempt to school them on your rights was fallacious. You don’t have any rights to assert on someebody else’s property and the cops don’t have to be given itemized instructions authorizing them to tell you to get down.
I know the above sounds harsh, but the reality of parasitic lawsuits are pretty dang harsh as well and I’m not sure you’ve considered it from this angle.
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