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To: BroJoeK
First, your opinion of Buchanan, too obvious the ad hominem attack that it was, changes nothing. He said what he said, and that was that as President, he did not have the authority to force any state to remain in the Union.

Southerners were saying exactly the same thing....and you know that. You also know that repeated attempts were made to solve the situation peacefully.

You said: “A pejorative accusation? Can you quote Southern leaders advocating secession but claiming there was no reason to expect war, and the South would do everything possible to avoid war?”

Of course I can. How many quotes would suit you?

You said: “Indeed, isn't it a fact that President Davis was clearly warned ahead of time that firing on Fort Sumter must necessarily lead to war, but did it any way?

What is more to the point is that the Union was warned that any attempt to enter Charleston Harbor would be considered an act of war. Didn't Lincoln do it anyway?

And you say: “Here's my point — all the evidence I've seen says the South not only expected war, they were eager for it, and had no problem with the idea of firing the first shots and making the first attacks....

That is essentially stereotypical popular media revision poppycock.

You said: “you never read Lincoln's First Inaugural, did you? Come on, pal, get a grip on reality.”

Apparently you failed to read this: “The power confided in me will be used to hold, occupy and possess the property and places belonging to the government, and to collect the duties and impost but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion—no using force against or among the people anywhere”.

Political leaders in the Confederacy recognized that Lincoln was pledging to hold Ft. Sumter, and use the military to do so. This President was prepared to use coercive military action on states that left the Union.

And you know it is a fact that “six weeks later sent a secret naval mission to invade Charleston harbor”

You said: “Bottom line: there was no serious effort by the South to negotiate a peaceful settlement at Fort Sumter.”

Bottom line. Not true.

Do you know the names Martin Crawford of Georgia, John Forsyth of Alabama, and A. B. Roman of Louisiana and where they were on March 7, 1861?

760 posted on 06/25/2009 12:40:20 PM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: PeaRidge
Do you know the names Martin Crawford of Georgia, John Forsyth of Alabama, and A. B. Roman of Louisiana and where they were on March 7, 1861?

Sitting in D.C. waiting to deliver their ultimatum to Abraham Lincoln.

764 posted on 06/25/2009 12:56:00 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: PeaRidge
"First, your opinion of Buchanan, too obvious the ad hominem attack that it was, changes nothing. He said what he said, and that was that as President, he did not have the authority to force any state to remain in the Union.

"ad hominem" attack on Buchanan?? Do you know what the word "dough face" means? Do you know where it came from?

OK, Mr. Philosopher King who is, oh, so very sensitive to "ad hominem" attacks on friends of the South, but who denies the existential possibility of "ad hominem" attacks on "damnyankees" (obviously since the truth cannot be "ad hominem," right?), here's the story on "doughface" northerners.

Back in 1820, Virginia Congressman John Randolf was debating the Missouri Compromise on slavery, and needed the help of northerners sympathetic to the South to get the bill passed. But Randolf despised those people for their lack of commitment to their own cause, and coined the term "doughface" (or possibly "doe faced") to describe them. The term stuck.

So President Buchanan was a "dough faced northerner," and that's a fact. And since the term was invented by a southerner, it cannot, by PeaRidge philosophical definition, be an unacceptable "ad hominem" attack -- since no derogatory term for northerners invented by southerners can be derogatory, only fact, right?

PR:"Southerners were saying exactly the same thing....and you know that. You also know that repeated attempts were made to solve the situation peacefully.""

BJK:"Can you quote Southern leaders advocating secession but claiming there was no reason to expect war, and the South would do everything possible to avoid war?”

PR:"Of course I can. How many quotes would suit you?"

My understanding is the South was eager for war, and unwilling to compromise ANYTHING to avoid it. But perhaps you can demonstrate otherwise? What was the South willing to compromise? I'd like to see those quotes.

901 posted on 06/28/2009 7:51:17 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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To: PeaRidge
"Apparently you failed to read this:

“The power confided in me will be used to hold, occupy and possess the property and places belonging to the government, and to collect the duties and impost but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion—no using force against or among the people anywhere”.

"Political leaders in the Confederacy recognized that Lincoln was pledging to hold Ft. Sumter, and use the military to do so. This President was prepared to use coercive military action on states that left the Union.

"And you know it is a fact that “six weeks later sent a secret naval mission to invade Charleston harbor”"

You have to remember the sequence of events here.

Battle of Fort Sumter

First, on January 9, President Doughface Buchanan, who you quote so lovingly as saying the Union had no right to make war to preserve itself, sends a hired merchant ship, Star of the West to resupply Federal troops at Fort Sumter.

The South fired on this ship -- January 9, the true first shots of the war -- and ran it off.

By April 4, Lincoln is told the Federal forces in Fort Sumter have enough food to last til April 15. He ordered a resupply expedition of merchant vessels, this time escorted by the US Navy.

On April 6, 1861, Lincoln notified South Carolina Governor Francis W. Pickens that

"an attempt will be made to supply Fort Sumter with provisions only, and that if such attempt be not resisted, no effort to throw in men, arms, or ammunition will be made without further notice, [except] in case of an attack on the fort."

In response, the Confederate cabinet, meeting in Montgomery, decided on April 9 to open fire on Fort Sumter in an attempt to force its surrender before the relief fleet arrived.

Only Secretary of State Robert Toombs opposed this decision: he reportedly told Jefferson Davis the attack

"will lose us every friend at the North. You will wantonly strike a hornet's nest. ... Legions now quiet will swarm out and sting us to death. It is unnecessary. It puts us in the wrong. It is fatal."

The Confederate Secretary of War telegraphed Beauregard that if he were certain that the fort was to be supplied by force,

"You will at once demand its evacuation, and if this is refused proceed, in such a manner as you may determine, to reduce it."

Beauregard dispatched aides to Fort Sumter on April 11 and issued their ultimatum. Anderson refused, though he reportedly commented,

"Men, if you do not batter the fort to pieces about us, we shall be starved out in a few days."

Seems to me the South was eager for war, and not willing to do anything to avoid it.

907 posted on 06/28/2009 8:33:20 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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