Posted on 05/24/2009 10:20:53 AM PDT by Logic n' Reason
I have become very curious about the Freemasons and freemasonry in general.
How does it "fit in" with the group of Christian religions...how about islam? What are the views and opinions of those at this site?
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.
It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who that is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?
Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened. "
--excerpt from President George Washington's farewell address, 1796.
Observe the context within which the American Revolutionary Fathers existed: that of subjugation by the State Church of England, via its various political and mercantile appendages.
What then, if not the State Church, was the source of the "Religious Morality" cited by Washington?
I believe it, Religious Morality, is the work-product of the relationship between the INDIVIDUAL, their Creator, and each other - and free discourse with same. It was, IMHO, Free Discourse that was encouraged and PROTECTED by the Lodge. In Washington's day and prior, speaking out against the State religion had potentialy severe and deadly consequences.
Thus - "TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men..."
And no, I'm not a member.
You are correct in your scripture, and we Christians understand that completely.
There is, however, nothing - let me repeat that, absolutely NOTHING - about salvation in Masonry. Masonry is NOT about salvation, it is NOT about competing with ANY religion; it is about living a moral life.
It’s a shame that some here seem congenitally incapable of understanding that distinction. Please, please, please learn what you’re talking about before you make an even bigger fool of yourself.
Thanks for not going all wonky on me... >:-}
Hey BUB! I was talking about MY GRANDFATHER and what HE BELIEVED! Have some respect for my grqandfather bvefore you spout off...OK??
I do have respect for your grandfather, and for you, but you are both wrong about Freemasonry. I’m glad be became a Christian before his death, but Masonry was never an obstacle to him. I’m sorry he thought it was.
What degree are you?
That would be pertinent if it were not for the many immoral oaths that one must swear to be a Mason in good standing.
Actually, it seems to be about attaining eternal life through good deeds; an impossible task. That is the chief reason for making the facts known to all, lest they become confused in their search.
Ann,
You mentioned your granddad was a 33red degree Mason. That means he took degrees in the Scottish Rites, after receiving his first three degrees in the Blue Lodge. That is one path of Masonry. Another path is the York Rites, in which I took my degrees. That leads to the final degree of Knight Templar, which is where I ended.
I respect your granddad for both his Masonic journey, and his coming to Christ later in life. If he felt that Masonry was incompatible with Christianity, then I respect his opinion there took though I disagree with it.
Sounds good to me, too.
Wrong again! All Masonic oaths contain the explicit knowledge that they are allegorical in nature, not literal, and none are immoral.
There is nothing in Masonry to indicates we trying to attain eternal life through good deeds. Good deeds, or moral behavior is its own reward, it’s what we’re expected to do as children of God.
Where do you get this stuff?
A point I should have mentioned in my earlier reply to you is that the Knight Templar degree is the only Masonic degree that is explicitly Christian.
It is also not the last degree, neither is the 33rd which maintains a 2/3 York and 1/3 Scottish ration in its membership.
After the published degrees, there are “invitation only” degrees that you would only be aware of once invited. Those that I am aware of require 32nd and KT degrees.
You’re apparently not much of a student of American History.
Legal records in New England are full of prosecutions of those that took their oaths quite seriously, and in the manner that Pike admonished that they should.
Be careful! - There are some enforcers here that will be inviting you to wear a tinfoil hat ;o)
Oh, I’m well aware of the history you mention, and even the most important one you probably know about but didn’t mention; the Morgan Affair. Yes, Freemasonry has had it’s unpleasant incidents, I freely admit. But I live in the present, and present day Freemasonry is nothing like what you describe.
Is it your belief that I should reject Christianity because the church once conducted Inquisitions and sent Conquistadors to the new world to convert natives, and failing that, to slaughter them? I’m afraid that your reaching back into history to be selectively outraged doesn’t impress me.
You are correct that there are are additional degrees that can be taken. The Scottish Rites are traditionally understood to be the 33 degrees, and in the York Rites there are the degrees in Council, Chapter, and the Chivalric Orders of the Knights. Both Rites, however, have appendant bodies and additional degrees.
I'll be the first to agree with that point, but just because lives are no longer being taken, and barns not being burned, does not mean that penalties have been completely foregone. Business deals do get sabotaged, and judges do accept perjured testimony with full knowledge. Its just harder to pin down now. I don't mean this as an indictment of rank and file members, but of those to which Ed alluded.
Look, this testy exchange has hardened us into positions we seem unwilling to modify. I suspect we agree on far more than we disagree on. My own experience in Masonry, including a stint in the Grand Lodge, has given me no evidence whatever of nefarious activities or intentions. I’m proud to be a Mason, and firm in my Christian beliefs; there are no contradictions.
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