Dogs have souls, but you already knew that

For centuries, humans have imagined they are the only animals with morals. But humans are not alone in the moral arena, a new breed of behavior experts says. Natural historian Jake Page said some scientists are acknowledging what pet owners have told their canines all along: "Good dog."

Dogs are full of natural goodness and have rich emotional lives, said animal behaviorist Marc Bekoff, professor emeritus at the University of Colorado, Boulder.

A dog's code of ethics is on display daily in parks, backyards and family rooms. "We're not trying to elevate animals," Bekoff said. "We're not trying to reduce humans. We're not saying we're better or worse or the same. We're saying we're not alone in having a nuanced moral system." Page, author of "Do Dogs Smile?," said biology no longer dismisses dogs and other animals as "furry automatons" driven by instinct and food. "People like Bekoff have figured out how to measure these things," Page said. "It's a whole new ballgame for studying dog personalities and emotions." Bekoff, co-author of "Wild Justice: The Moral Lives of Animals," spent thousands of hours observing coyotes, wolves and dogs. He analyzed videotapes frame by frame. The work convinced him these animals possess empathy and compassion, the emotions upon which moral sense is built. While much the same can be said of monkeys, wolves, elephants, dolphins, whales and other social animals, dogs are special cases; they share in human lives, he said. "Dogs know they are dependent. They learn to read us," Bekoff said.

"Dogs develop this great sense of trust. We're tightly linked, and there is something spiritual about that unity."

Well, I didn’t pull it out of the air. It was in response to your posts about breeders.

And my posts were not “crapola.” I speak from experience with many years of rescues, and knowing several “rescue organization” managers, and purebred breeders. Few of them are in it for altruistic motives. Many are control freaks.

If you had read my posts, I have had many years of rescue dogs, mostly the older ones who were most in danger of being put down. Getting the purebred puppies has been a real joy, and well worth the time, effort, and money.

You seem to be more than willing to verify my bad experiences with “rescuers.”

That series of verses does not deal strictly with mankind, Nosterrex. To paraphrase, God gave each "seed" a body in this Earthly existence as He saw fit and pleasing, with the many different kinds of natural bodies listed off as examples. These bodies are all described as having glory, different in their glory, but glorious nonetheless. These bodies are then described as finite, corrupt and weak, but also born into incorruption in spirit. There is nothing there limiting the discourse to mankind alone.

Additionally, if you turn to the Book of Romans, Chapter 8, verses 18 -24, there is further enlightenment, as far as God's view of His creatures, and how their existence has been affected by the sin of mankind, through no fault of their own:

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time aren not worthy to be compared with thte glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reasion of him who hath subjected the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the tredemption of our body. For we are saved by hope; but hope that is seen is not hope; for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Yes, the entire creation has been affected by the Fall. Paul was using analogies (I Corinthians) to describe what glorified flesh and blood will be in Heaven. If I followed your interpretation on this verse, than I would have to concluded that the Sun and Moon have souls. I cannot find anything in the Bible that implies that non-humans have a soul or will be raised up. As a pet lover myself, I can understand the motivation for finding support for the belief that animals have an eternal existence, but the Bible gives no support to that desire. Animals are for this world only, primarily for food and labor, and there is no need for them in Heaven. I would suggest that if animals were promised external existence, there would be some explicit promise to such; however, there is not any.

This presupposes we understand what a soul is. Biblically it seems that the soul is the seat of emotions, and animals, esp. dogs, can illustrate that, but more significant is they also manifest a conscience. None of this need be unBiblical, as

(Job 12:7-10) “But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: {8} Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. {9} Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this? {10} In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.”

However, while “soul” and spirit” are sometimes not translated as distinct, a different word is used in the fullness of revelation. (1Ths. 5:23) It is the spirit of man that is seen as giving man his innate sense of God, and responsibility to Him, and thus man is religious by nature, with worship being an activity peculiar to man. No animal as far i know has built his version of Stonehenge for worship.

Some Christians believe animals will live forever, but the problem with that is where do you stop. Redeemed cockroaches?

Creatures other than man did not sin, but are subject to sickness, corruption, aging and death because of man's sin. God entered into covenants with all creatures, who are, according to the Bible, demonstrably aware of Him, sing the praises of Him, and obey Him. Read your Bible. It's in there. God did not create the world and all that is in it to be temporary, to be annihilated, for futility. None of it. Read your Bible. It's in there.

As far as your observation about comparisons between the glory of celestial bodies and the glory of the Sun, Moon and stars, the Bible says the very stones will cry out. What does that mean, to you?

It means, to me, that Creation is not solely what we're able to physically sense. It's all that and much more, more that we will ever be able to comprehend while in the flesh, in this Earthly existence.

The only Biblical passages that have been used to argue against a Biblical afterlife for animals have been Ecclesiastes 3:18-21. Read in the context of the son of David, speaking in his time, however, it's quite clear that he was arguing for anything but. It's a reproof against hubris, and presuming to know, when you do not know:

I said in mine heart concerning the estates of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth the beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth, whether the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward into the earth?

They sing praises to God, and obey. Do I need to cite chapter and verse?

Yes, not in poetic language, or in the future dispensation, but in manifest cognizance of God and in volitional response to Him, as man does.

Some day all will give God glory, even perhaps by demons as forced by reality, but not slavifically.

(Rev 5:13-14) “And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. {14} And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.”

I take it in stride. Besides...not ONE single Freeper who disagrees with me has ‘pinged’ me to their snarky comments, preferring to carry on the conversation against me behind my back, so I take that for what it’s worth, LOL!

If anyone cares, I bought the following items for my ‘soul-less’ pets today:

*A new wading pool for the hot summer months ahead; already filled, already being enjoyed...

*A wrist-rocket device for flinging tennis balls about a 1/4 mile for them to chase...

*A fifty pound bag of dog food...

*A huge container of cat litter (AND I cleaned the cat box!)...

*A package of ‘Puperoni’ treats for training (a well-trained, obedient animal is a JOY to have around and it also keeps them safe)...

I never feel like a ‘loser’ and I ADORE my pets and treat them better than some people treat their own children.

Thanks for pinging me. It gave me the opportunity to share what I’ve done for my pets today (and every day.)

BUT, I do not believe they have souls. I do not think I’ll see them in the Afterlife because God put them here on Earth for my enjoyment and for my dominion and for my use and for my care. I can hardly WAIT to see what He has in store for me on the other side, if having pets in my life on THIS side has been so rewarding! :)

I just wish that people would get this worked up over the, Oh, I don’t know, ONE HUNDRED CHILDREN that have been ABORTED today, alone. There’s one hundred SOULS that need to be prayed for if anyone needs something to get worked up about. :)

And it shall be that thou shalt drink of the brook; and I have commanded the ravens to feed thee there. So he went and did according unto the word of the Lord: for he went and dwelt by the brook Cherith, that is before Jordan. And the ravens brought him bread and flesh in the morning, and bread and flesh in the evening; and he drank of the brook.

I Kings 17:4-6

But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and fhe fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the Lord hath wrought this? In Whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Job 12:7-10

Who provides food for the ravens when their young cry out to God as they wander about in hunger?

Job 38:41

All the earth bows down to You; they sing praise to You, they sing praise to Your name, Selah.

Psalms 66:4

Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl; Kings of the earth and all people; princes, and all judges of the earth: Both young men and maidens old men and children: Let them praise the name of the Lord: for His name alone is excellent; His glory is above the earth and heaven.

Psalms 148:10-13

And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

Isaiah 40:5

You’re dealing righteously and mercifully with the creatures in your care, Diana, and that’s what the Lord asks of us.

There are many Christian sects that reject the concept of any creature other than man having a soul. Your salvation is not dependent upon accepting it.

But, it’s there, in the Bible. God is the God of the living, not the dead. Creation will be restored. None of his creatures were created for futility and annihilation. Mankind caused that, via the Fall and the curse, and it will be set aright.

I, for one, look forward to it. It’ll be glorious.

This is not a critical issue, but proper exegesis is. None of your references proves that animals are offering volitional worship, in response to consciousness of God.

>....And the ravens brought him bread and flesh in the morning, and bread and flesh in the evening; and he drank of the brook. I Kings 17:4-6<

The clouds and the sun obey God, and give Him glory as all creation does, but not in a manner that man is able to and is called to do. Where is it said that God spoke to an animal and he responded out of a heart that choose to love God, loved though he could have done otherwise? It is not manifest that they are given that responsibility. Note: when God used Balaams donkey it was “the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice”. (2 Pet 2:16)

>But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the Lord hath wrought this? In Whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. Job 12:7-10<

I myself provided this verse as proof that animals have souls, which is not the issue. This passage is poetic language, as the earth does not literally speak or teach as man does, and does not prove it worships as man can.

>Who provides food for the ravens when their young cry out to God as they wander about in hunger? Job 38:41<

>All the earth bows down to You; they sing praise to You, they sing praise to Your name, Selah. Psalms 66:4<

Poetic. And David’s enemies came to eat up his flesh, as their land was one that eateth up the inhabitants thereof. (Ps. 27:2; Num. 13:32) And see next comment.

>Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl; Kings of the earth and all people; princes, and all judges of the earth: Both young men and maidens old men and children: Let them praise the name of the Lord: for His name alone is excellent; His glory is above the earth and heaven. Psalms 148:10-13<

All creation now praises God by their very existence, as “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork. {2} Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. {3} There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.” (Psa 19:1-3)

And one day i believe all creation could by an act of will worship God, but this does not evidence that all creation is now conscious of their Creator, with will that can worship God or not.

>And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it. Isaiah 40:5<

That is the main thing! If animals now pray and worship by an act of will, fine, but this is not established in Scripture. But what the Bible provides is clear evidence that angels and man are creations that have this God-consciousness, and only man is said to possess a body, soul and spirit. And thus to man it is written,

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.” (Eccl 12:13)

Angels have sinned and fallen. Man has sinned and is fallen, provoking a curse upon all the world and the creatures in it. Other than man, with knowledge of good and evil and hence a requisite for “volitional” worship, God’s creatures remain in accord with His will. They have not sinned. They suffer and die because of man’s sin.

We had and continue to have dominion over creation. We are created in His image, alone among the creatures, including angels, which I’m sure you will admit are greater than us. Does this somehow diminish our standing before the Lord? It does not.

There are animals in Heaven. Are these animals that have never experienced an earthly existence? Why would God subject any creature that was intended for eternal life to futility? Especially when it was not they who brought sin into this world, and corruption, decay and death along with it.

I’ve posted Biblical passages that plainly describe all God’s creatures as having hope of the glorious liberty of the sons of God. You, yourself agree that animals have souls. So, I’m not quite sure where you’re coming from, unless you actually believe that a merciful and just God takes eternal vengeance upon the blameless, and obliterates the obedient.

He does not.

Fallen angels who rebelled against Him and left their heavenly habitation will be destroyed. Those among mankind who reject salvation and remain in rebellion will be destroyed. Those among mankind who accept salvation, along with those creatures who never rebelled in the first place, will not be destroyed. They will live. Death itself will be destroyed as well, so those lives will not end.

It can’t possibly be more clear.

The examples that you use denoting inanimate objects rejoicing and singing, etc. are anthropomorphisms and are not meant to be taken literally. We use this non-literal language all the time in conversation, and most of the time we are not even aware of it, such as someone saying that he heard it from the horse's mouth.

Again, show me a verse or passage in the Scripture that explicitly says that animals have souls and will be resurrected. Friend, you are engaging in eisegesis. You can play all the mental gymnastics that you want, but it still boils down to the fact that there is not a single verse in the entire Scriptures that supports the view that inanimate objects or animals have souls or will be resurrected.

The Scriptures do say that there will be a NEW Heaven and a new earth. What that new Heaven and new earth will be like is a subject for another discussion.

Faith must rest upon a sure and certain promise. There is no promise anywhere in Scripture that animals or rocks will be in Heaven.

The examples that you use denoting inanimate objects rejoicing and singing, etc. are anthropomorphisms and are not meant to be taken literally.

So you say. I've provided two, one in passing, regarding the very stones crying out, and one in Chronicles, referring to the body as a seed, comparing the different kinds of natural bodies or "flesh" among His Creation, relating those natural bodies, differing in their glory, to celestial bodies, celestial bodies to heavenly bodies, which also differ in their glory, and then plainly stating that there is a natural body, and a spiritual body.

Again, show me a verse or passage in the Scripture that explicitly says that animals have souls and will be resurrected.

Romans 8:18-24

There is no promise anywhere in Scripture that animals or rocks will be in Heaven.

There's no need of a promise regarding animals, because the Bible plainly states that they're already there. As far as rocks, well, what are gemstones if not rocks, Nosterrex?

>I’ve posted Biblical passages that plainly describe all God’s creatures as having hope of the glorious liberty of the sons of God. You, yourself agree that animals have souls. So, I’m not quite sure where you’re coming from,<

If you read what i first posted and you first responded to, you will not see that i denied all creation having hope of liberation from the curse that man wrought, as when he sinned, he evil affected all under his stewardship. And i affirmed that all creation does glorify God and will praise Him. What i said was that worship, as i went on to describe it, is an activity peculiar to man, who uniquely demonstrates a God-consciousness, and explicitly, formally worships God out of a heart that chooses to do so, and is given a will that can so choose, unlike a cloud, etc. That is manifested in Scripture as the unique ability and responsibility of angel and men, and thus they alone are judged and rewarded accordingly, with the latter even judging the former. Such being are given more accountability, and rewards, for good or bad. Animals however, are to be subject to man.

Now “Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.” (Psa 150:6) In its own way.

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