Posted on 11/07/2008 10:40:35 AM PST by Traviswf
Hi there. I voted for Obama, but have been reading a lot of Freerepublic lately to see how the other side is reacting. I'm not trying to troll here - honestly - but if you feel I am, that's understandable. I just wanted to offer a perspective on this that I think may be interesting to some of you. Oh, and this is much longer than I intended. And I'm fairly certain I'm not posting this the right way...for which I apologize.
When Bush was elected in 2000, I was upset. And yes, I whined about him "stealing" the election. I don't really think that's true anymore - it was just a painful way to lose. Sure, we can whine about the popular vote vs. the electoral vote, but you can't change the rules in the middle of the game. Then I watched the movie Recount and realized just how awful the democrats were at trying to win the damn thing. Gore seemed like he didn't really want it.
When Bush won in 2004, I was absolutely devastated. I thought the world was going to end. I didn't think we should be in Iraq, I agreed with Kerry that we had to finish the fight in Afganistan. I was worried about the courts. And frankly - I just didn't like Bush. I didn't like the way he governed, the way he spoke, and the way he talked as if we on the left were less American.
On 9/11 I happened to be in Toronto on business. When the towers fell, I knew I had to get home. A colleague and I wanted to go to New York, to help in some way. But we were told nobody was getting anywhere close. Our next instinct was to get home - to California. We didn't just want to be with our families, we desperately wanted to be in our country. That day was rough because my colleague thought his wife might have been on one of the planes - her travel plans were very similar. It took hours of agony before we, thank God, found out she was safe.
So we rented a car in Toronto and drove across the country. It took a couple hours to get across the border in the middle of the night. We stopped in Omaha, and then Colorado. I can't even tell you how much I loved my country driving across its beauty in those days after the attacks. And there were no jokes about "we're in enemy territory" because we were in "red states." We were in America. Everywhere we went people said "How are you? Is everyone safe?"
I know everyone has similar stories of those days. And certainly many, many people have stories of real loss - not just "we thought we lost someone, but it was a happy ending." Then, fairly quickly, I felt my patriotism coming under attack because I had a difference of opinion about how to fight back. I didn't think Iraq was the right choice - it made no sense to me, and I certainly wasn't alone. But people questioned my love of my country. And that was very, very hard to forgive.
When 2008 came up, more than anything, I wanted to win the White House back. I wanted to punish the Bush administration for what I felt was not just a failure to be competent, but a failure to keep the country united. I inititally supported Hilary, but I had this feeling in my gut that she was just going to be Bush - but for our side. She'd be a partisan warrior, a polarizing figure (which Bush wasn't when he started, but Hilary already was...). It made me sick to my stomach.
I wanted to go back to feeling like an American in those days after the attack - where our disagreements were things we laughed about over a beer and the real threat was far, far more serious.
I'd written Obama's candidacy off as a dry run for 2016 or later. Or maybe he was running for VP. I thought - hey, dude, at least finish a term in the Senate. Then when he said "we're not a collection of red states and blue states, we're the United States of America" it hit me like lightning. It had nothing to do with him - it had to do with the country, and my love for it and this feeling deep down in my gut that we were fighting over the placement of the deck chairs while the ship was sinking.
Wow, this got really rambly. Sorry about that. Here's why I posted initially. I saw this thing on here about Obama's "national defense force" and some posters commenting about the coming civil war or some such. I'm pretty sure Obama was just talking about funding for police. I mean - are you guys really worried he's going to do this? There was a rumor on the left that Bush was bringing a military brigade trained in "riot control" home from Iraq before the elections. People were convinced Bush was going to take over the country in a military coup. I'm sure you think that's laughable - as do I. Obama is not going to raise a civilian force of brown coats. First of all there's no money for it, nobody would go for it, and he'd be laughed out of the White House.
He's also not a socialist. And he's not coming for your guns. If he did either of this things, he can basically just go home now. Those are not realistic positions for any president to have. He will likely appoint liberals - at least too liberal for you guys - to the courts.
But here's the thing. He's going to try and be a good president. I think they all do. And Obama ran on uniting the country, on being bipartisan. That's sort of ALL he ran on. It's how he won 60% of independent and brought home so many of the Clinton voters. So if he doesn't deliver on this - I imagine he'll be fairly easy to beat in 2012.
So that's my two cents. Obama was always going to get my vote as the nominee because I'm a lifelong democrat and a liberal. But I'm not a socialist or a pacifist. I believe in the 2nd amendment and favor the idea of most issues being decided by the states. I'm not a religious man, but I respect those who are and I think the Dems over reach in pushing religion out of the public square. I believe global warming is a serious problem, but I also think Al Gore enjoys it WAY too much.
And here's another caveat. I know it's easier to be bipartisan and talk about "togetherness" when my guy won. I was where you guys are now in 2000 and 2004. I mean, my party ALMOST ran Howard Dean and then said "No wait! John Kerry is a much better idea!" Or in this election to have a friend say "You've GOT to read Alec Baldwin's latest piece on HuffPo." I mean...really? He doesn't count as an "Obamacon" you know, he only plays a republican on TV...(you guys ever notice that our most annoying Hollywood liberals end up playing republicans? what's with that?)
So yeah - we've all spent some time in the woods. I just hope we can all agree that we're just as American as the other, and we're passionate about what we believe to be the right path to take. There are real problems with the economy, and Islamic Terrorists aren't going to take a vacation for four years.
That's about it I guess. Sorry you guys lost.
BUMP to 111
Abu Nidal was killed on the orders of Saddam Hussein in 2002. The Iraqis claim that he killed himself. Either way, he wasn’t a threat to anyone in 2003 when we invaded.
Try again.
Anything positive since the 90s in the region is because of OUR intervention one form or another... and here you are, lamenting the entire decision in the first place.Enforcing the No Fly Zone cannot be rationally compared with the invasion of Iraq which, by the way, has ruined a great deal of the progress fostered by the No Fly Zone. The No Fly Zone did not cost 10 billion dollars a month nor the life of a single American soldier and very few Iraqi lives (innocent or otherwise) either.
"How we got here" is precisely how we understand the "reality of today."
Precisely. To put it another way; If we don't understand "How we got here" it isn't possible to avoid going there again in the future.
Since Congress is the biggest decider of where we are going and by design Congress works by arguing things "arguing about how we got here" had better take place.
He probably believes 5 tons of uranium yellow cake was only kept around as a sandbox for the neighborhood kids.This was kept under IAEA seal, which was checked in December in 2002 and found to have been undisturbed. And despite the fact that Iraq already had yellowcake Uranium, we are supposed to believe that Hussen tried to buy more from Niger. And so on and so on and yeah, I know Hannity says the WMD were moved to Syria. Blah blah blah.
I've given up arguing with 9/11 Truthers and you guys aren't any different. You and the other Iraq Truthers obviously have an emotional need to hang on to long-debunked propaganda. Have fun with that. I'm done.
The guys who got shot at while patrolling that no fly zone would beg to differ with your opinion.
But what did Will do?
In the big picture, I agree with you and the others who responded to my post. But I for one am sick and tired of all of the nastiness. If they’re feeling magnanamous in victory and want to play nice, I don’t see the harm in trying to work with them.
Please understand this is not me saying that I want to join them or that I think that their ideology is anything but ruinous, but if they want to forge partnerships, I fail to see the harm of having our points of view represented.
Trust, but verify.
So where did it all go if it were truly undisturbed?
I didn’t post the quote you seem to be attributing to me. ???
Of course. I always forget what a veritable utopia the nation of Iraq was before the evil Americans came in and shot civilians, raped women, snubbed out any notion of free press and tossed dissenters by the thousands into unmarked mass graves. Oh wait, is that right? Please enlighten us with your pentrating insight, oh Wise One... considering the media's coverage, I've forgotten if Iraq was ruled with an iron fist by a despotic thug who was linked time and time again with the suicide bombers in Israel and the original WTC bombing crew, among many other egregious injustices against freedom and liberty in general
No one is discounting the lives lost on both sides, specifically our men & women
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
You have not responded to my post which called you out for a ridiculous mis-statement about “Curveball” so for you to compare me to the “9/11 Truthers” is especially despicable.
I asked you for substantiation on a post of yours that was patently false and you respond with vicious smears.
As for the “yellowcake” issues, you are showing once again that you think like the nutty leftists on KOS. Are you a troll?
The fact that the 500 tons of yellowcake uranium was under IAEA seal was a lot less significant than a lot of people seem to think. That only meant that IF Saddam continued to allow inspections then we could determine whether he had broken the seals to begin using that yellowcake in a renewed nuclear program. It did not mean he could not decide at any time to utilize all that yellowcake to make many weapons, only that we might know he had re-started his nuclear program IF the IAEA was able to inspect the seals (which was always a big “IF”).
So, it was always a big problem to allow all that yellowcake to remain in Iraq - the seals only meant that Saddam could not use it in secret, not that he could never use it.
Furthermore, the reason that Saddam’s regime might have wanted to obtain new uranium supplies in secret was that IF he wanted to re-start his nuclear program surreptitiously, then a new supply would be invaluable - he could buy time by allowing the IAEA to inspect the seals on the known supply, while running a secret program, and ignorant trolls like you would never be the wiser (nor would all the govts. that wanted to bury their heads in the sand).....
SO, can you grasp it now? It’s not an either/or..... the 500 tons of yellowcake known to be under seal in Iraq would have been invaluable to a re-started nuclear program at any time that Saddam was willing to openly flout the IAEA..... AND Saddam had strong reason to seek a new, secret supply so long as he cared to maintain the illusion that he did not have a nuclear weapons program.
You are far less informed than you imagine, and your insults only further reveal your ignorance.
Ignorance is curable friend stupidity is forever. Your choice.
My bad - that wasn’t intended for you - latent click syndrome? Sorry.
That's for sure. Not one post with substance.
Think nothing of it. It was merely a flesh wound.
LOL! I love the scene. Sorry for the misfire.
If being bipartisan is important to you then you have made a big mistake voting for Obama. He has done nothing in his years in the senate (state, US) to indicated he has the willingness or ability to be bipartisan. Contrast that with McCain and his reputation of being bipartisan (much to the displeasure of posters here) on many occasions in his history.
precisely so...Limbaugh is right, defeat liberals and then if we want to, sit them on the couch and figure out what makes them tick!
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