Posted on 11/07/2008 10:40:35 AM PST by Traviswf
Hi there. I voted for Obama, but have been reading a lot of Freerepublic lately to see how the other side is reacting. I'm not trying to troll here - honestly - but if you feel I am, that's understandable. I just wanted to offer a perspective on this that I think may be interesting to some of you. Oh, and this is much longer than I intended. And I'm fairly certain I'm not posting this the right way...for which I apologize.
When Bush was elected in 2000, I was upset. And yes, I whined about him "stealing" the election. I don't really think that's true anymore - it was just a painful way to lose. Sure, we can whine about the popular vote vs. the electoral vote, but you can't change the rules in the middle of the game. Then I watched the movie Recount and realized just how awful the democrats were at trying to win the damn thing. Gore seemed like he didn't really want it.
When Bush won in 2004, I was absolutely devastated. I thought the world was going to end. I didn't think we should be in Iraq, I agreed with Kerry that we had to finish the fight in Afganistan. I was worried about the courts. And frankly - I just didn't like Bush. I didn't like the way he governed, the way he spoke, and the way he talked as if we on the left were less American.
On 9/11 I happened to be in Toronto on business. When the towers fell, I knew I had to get home. A colleague and I wanted to go to New York, to help in some way. But we were told nobody was getting anywhere close. Our next instinct was to get home - to California. We didn't just want to be with our families, we desperately wanted to be in our country. That day was rough because my colleague thought his wife might have been on one of the planes - her travel plans were very similar. It took hours of agony before we, thank God, found out she was safe.
So we rented a car in Toronto and drove across the country. It took a couple hours to get across the border in the middle of the night. We stopped in Omaha, and then Colorado. I can't even tell you how much I loved my country driving across its beauty in those days after the attacks. And there were no jokes about "we're in enemy territory" because we were in "red states." We were in America. Everywhere we went people said "How are you? Is everyone safe?"
I know everyone has similar stories of those days. And certainly many, many people have stories of real loss - not just "we thought we lost someone, but it was a happy ending." Then, fairly quickly, I felt my patriotism coming under attack because I had a difference of opinion about how to fight back. I didn't think Iraq was the right choice - it made no sense to me, and I certainly wasn't alone. But people questioned my love of my country. And that was very, very hard to forgive.
When 2008 came up, more than anything, I wanted to win the White House back. I wanted to punish the Bush administration for what I felt was not just a failure to be competent, but a failure to keep the country united. I inititally supported Hilary, but I had this feeling in my gut that she was just going to be Bush - but for our side. She'd be a partisan warrior, a polarizing figure (which Bush wasn't when he started, but Hilary already was...). It made me sick to my stomach.
I wanted to go back to feeling like an American in those days after the attack - where our disagreements were things we laughed about over a beer and the real threat was far, far more serious.
I'd written Obama's candidacy off as a dry run for 2016 or later. Or maybe he was running for VP. I thought - hey, dude, at least finish a term in the Senate. Then when he said "we're not a collection of red states and blue states, we're the United States of America" it hit me like lightning. It had nothing to do with him - it had to do with the country, and my love for it and this feeling deep down in my gut that we were fighting over the placement of the deck chairs while the ship was sinking.
Wow, this got really rambly. Sorry about that. Here's why I posted initially. I saw this thing on here about Obama's "national defense force" and some posters commenting about the coming civil war or some such. I'm pretty sure Obama was just talking about funding for police. I mean - are you guys really worried he's going to do this? There was a rumor on the left that Bush was bringing a military brigade trained in "riot control" home from Iraq before the elections. People were convinced Bush was going to take over the country in a military coup. I'm sure you think that's laughable - as do I. Obama is not going to raise a civilian force of brown coats. First of all there's no money for it, nobody would go for it, and he'd be laughed out of the White House.
He's also not a socialist. And he's not coming for your guns. If he did either of this things, he can basically just go home now. Those are not realistic positions for any president to have. He will likely appoint liberals - at least too liberal for you guys - to the courts.
But here's the thing. He's going to try and be a good president. I think they all do. And Obama ran on uniting the country, on being bipartisan. That's sort of ALL he ran on. It's how he won 60% of independent and brought home so many of the Clinton voters. So if he doesn't deliver on this - I imagine he'll be fairly easy to beat in 2012.
So that's my two cents. Obama was always going to get my vote as the nominee because I'm a lifelong democrat and a liberal. But I'm not a socialist or a pacifist. I believe in the 2nd amendment and favor the idea of most issues being decided by the states. I'm not a religious man, but I respect those who are and I think the Dems over reach in pushing religion out of the public square. I believe global warming is a serious problem, but I also think Al Gore enjoys it WAY too much.
And here's another caveat. I know it's easier to be bipartisan and talk about "togetherness" when my guy won. I was where you guys are now in 2000 and 2004. I mean, my party ALMOST ran Howard Dean and then said "No wait! John Kerry is a much better idea!" Or in this election to have a friend say "You've GOT to read Alec Baldwin's latest piece on HuffPo." I mean...really? He doesn't count as an "Obamacon" you know, he only plays a republican on TV...(you guys ever notice that our most annoying Hollywood liberals end up playing republicans? what's with that?)
So yeah - we've all spent some time in the woods. I just hope we can all agree that we're just as American as the other, and we're passionate about what we believe to be the right path to take. There are real problems with the economy, and Islamic Terrorists aren't going to take a vacation for four years.
That's about it I guess. Sorry you guys lost.
No... you're just wrong. Not special.
What are you talking about? No one in either of these locations had anything whatsoever to do with the Taliban. This is just plain fiction.
Wrong
Iraq used to be a place where the was water and power and innocent people could walk the streets without getting blown to pieces. It used to be a place where you could be openly Christian without being murdered. I'm not saying that it was better under Saddam — no, that opinion comes from Iraqis themselves. Iraq is a mess. You have an awfully ignorant definition of "progress." Your baseless claims are propaganda. The truth on the ground is not as you describe it.
Hahahaha.. oh lord, please... stop. My ribs ache. Read any of the COUNTLESS stories on former Iraqis returning to help rebuild their fledgling democracy. Read the NY Times article on Dr. Tamimi who left Canada and a great life to become the mayor of Baghdad. Read about the Kurdish society in the north, where universities, shops and an airport now reside. These people were the largest group in the middle-east without a nation; I suspect even in your twisted logic you can find a place in there to approve of that "progress."
I don't really care what you believe. The American public doesn't buy this line anymore. Frankly, they don't really know what's going on either, but they just want it to stop. I'm saying it never should have started in the first place.
Finally, you admit that you don't care what I think... If that doesn't constitute an admission that you don't know what the hell you're talking about, nothing ever will. After all, you responded to me. If you didn't care, you could've just shut up. Fascinating
No, I’m just saying those coming here trolling and posting nothing but red meat intended to divide Conservatives, many signed up recently. As you or another pointed out, they also see a pattern from 2005 perhaps.
We can pretty well instinctively see who is here pulling for our cause and who is trolling. The Mods can see it better than anyone and I think they torture us sometimes by leaving trolls on here awhile so we can battle it out. But actually a good troll post brings instant unity to our side.
For example: Marines find underground nuke complex
Gee... what ever happened to that underground nuke complex or the "mobile bioweapons labs" or any of those other early reports? They were false. We found nothing but a few old, decayed remnants from the early 90's.
One or two answered posts could've kept this discussion rolling for a whole day.
Personally I haven't seen a thread hit 1k in quite awhile.
How about opposing the socialist at every turn? It's really not that difficult.
Since you're such an expert on our republic
Still bitterly clinging to your precious "democracy" I see.
Umm, nice try (I love when someone answers like a Valley Girl) I destroyed your point with facts. You have nothing of substance to respond with. Pointing to one situation that wasn’t what someone had said it was does nothing to refute an entirely separate factual statement. You have proved yourself intellectually dishonest.
WrongWell, now that you put it that way, I see your side of things.
Read the NY Times article on Dr. Tamimi who left Canada and a great life to become the mayor of Baghdad.That's OK, I've already read the works of dozens of Iraqi bloggers who have fled the country, including the guys from "Iraq the Model," who supported the war — initially.
Read about the Kurdish society in the north, where universities, shops and an airport now resideYou mean the stuff that's been there since well over a decade, when we were protected that region with a no-fly zone? Just because you just found out about it doesn't mean it's progress.
I’ve seen a fair amount of Obama voters in the past few days really making an effort to reach out and assure us that things won’t be that bad and that they want to work with us. I think it’s a very nice gesture and I hope for the opportunity to help where I can and point out when I think they’re in error (in a civilized way). I really appreciate gestures like this and hope it will make a difference in fixing some of the bile that’s accumulated over the last two decades.
And the left never forgave him for their darling, Alger Hiss.
Sorry, I aimed that comment at the person who started this vanity...
Taking the profits from a business, giving even more money to those who don't work for it, opening the doors to illegal immigration and granting citizenship, and destroying free speech by claiming every statement is racist is going to be the legacy of this president. I hope you are happy - your children will suffer for this decision.
Bit early to draw that conclusion, I think. Give it a couple of decades. (Someone recently quoted Zhou En Lai on the French revolution - wise words.)This is a pretty reasonable countpoint, but I would like to point out something. If you set a sufficiently distant horizon, then pretty much anything can work out. To give an absurdly exaggerated example, I could claim that American slavery was ultimately OK because look how great America is now — and we don't know how things might be different if we hadn't had it.
In addition to not knowing what the future holds, there's also the 'counterfactual history' problem - we know what happened because Bush decided to move, but we have no idea what would have happened had he not moved.
I could go on at great length about this, talking about how US troops in Saudi inflamed Osama, about how Saddam had an appetite for weapons, etc, etc but again, that's looking back, not too useful an exercise.Thanks for putting it that way, because I think that's really what I'm trying to get at. There's a lot of water under the bridge, and we have to take things as they are now. Unfortunately, that includes some political realities that we need to face if we're going to recover from this setback.
You don’t know how to work Google?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article630882.ece
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1857368,00.html
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/05/08/rahm_emanuel/
That is a straw man argument. You made the claim that there were no terrorists in Iraq before we invaded. That was shot down so you said the terrorists were only in areas that Saddam couldn't control. I shot that down. You reply to that by bringing up a different subject altogether; whether Saddam was making WMDs. No sale. Your point failed.
Here is another one in Bagdad, pre-invasion, totally separate from my other cite.
I am not feeling conciliatory and I refuse to be hypnotized by him and pray to him as my messiah like this guy who just called Sean Hannity.
John McCain's fear of saying anything bad about a fellow democrat, people who, just like in 2006, seem to think it is preferable to destroy the GOP rather than fight to build it up refused to show up to vote for the GOP (even with Sarah on the ticket) and ACORNs fraud cost us this election.
Well, I told people in 2006 they were making a huge mistake allowing democrats to win house and congress and now I am saying those who stayed home are going to get a very rude awakening from this new president.
This is an "argument" that socialists often resort to.
Since the past is replete with examples of their failures, they like to pretend that no lessons can be learned from history, which they seem to believe started the day that they were born.
If you're not too much of an idiot, you'll eventually discover how much of an idiot you actually were.
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