FRGC - Tuesday - What if?

9/16/08

[hiredhand]

As long as SKSs are still "relatively" cheap, people should purchase at least TWO plus a couple of thousand rounds of ammo, and seal it all properly in PVC...and bury it for later!

I think our house was not unlike many. We had many, MANY different firearms of different calibers and configurations....which is good if you like to collect firearms, but terrible from a logistics and support standpoint!

We sold a good many of the "oddballs" for cash...private sale of course to people that we TRUST. Then we settled for a "standard" long gun, pistol, .22 rifle, shotgun, and scoped distance rifle for each familly member. So far, we're about 2/3 at acquiring this stuff and probably won't get around procuring all of it. But that's not my point.

My point is that people think they're prepared because they've got the ole .30-30 and a couple of boxes of shells, when in truth, I think this is wishful thinking at best. Not that there's anything wrong with the .30-30. It's a fine cartridge, although I don't care for the weakness inherent in lever actions. But these are issues of "opinion". People with a goal for a common defense should choose a STANDARD and then stick to it!...even if they choose the .30-30! :-)

I was voted down and beaten in the debate over a standard carbine type semi-auto rifle. I won't go into any details, but even though it's NOT my preference and I don't like Stoner's direct gas impingement system, and alloy receivers, a charging handle that requires a complete shift of firing stance, and the documented poor kill ratios in recent conflicts... I can't deny that EVERY person (including females!) in my house can use this particular rifle!...and have proven so! Ammunition en-bulk was also about half price to reload with respect to 7.62 NATO, and even though I do NOT favor high-speed .22s, I know there is a lot to be said for being able to carry more ammo. I realize the advantage.

One thing we learned the hard way.... budget for "decent" (or GOOD!) electronic (or Tritium) signts and "proper" weapons lights when purchasing the "standard". There's nothing quite like trying to keep track of your light when things go "bump in the night"...and then when you find it, you discover that peep sights just aren't the same in the dark! The sights and light combined will add anywhere from $100 to over $1000 (ACOGS! :-) to the cost of the weapon, but it's an advantage nobody will want to be without when that time comes! The way our rigs are all set up...ya pick one up, charge it, turn on the sight, and if you need the light, the switch pad ends up being under your left thumb on the front grip (we all shoot right handed). No more searching for a light because it stays ON the weapon, and the sight is just GLARING at you!

One small word about electronic sights. I KNOW that people are tempted to go over to WallyWorld and just buy a BSA red dot sight, and for the money these are pretty good sights actually. We've used them before. But there is ONE big differentiating factor with "dot" sights! This factor is the sights' ability to keep POI (Point Of Impact) when you move your head, thus causing the dot to move within the sight. The cheaper sights will NOT hold POI with movement like this! The better sights (AimPoint, Trijicon, C-More...and a few others) WILL hold POI! We found this out by mistake really. One day, we were running drills shooting least dominant hand/eye around a barrier, and we noticed that my hit ratio was very, VERY good as compared to another guy who usually had a high hit ratio. We swapped rifles and his ratio went UP, and mine went DOWN! This is because when shooting least dominant eye, we tend to NOT get the dot centered! We discovered that the cheap sight did NOT keep POI when the dot wasn't centered!

After the shoot, we fired the rifles from a rest and verified this problem with POI and the cheap dot sight. These sights are still a pretty good value, just so long as people bear in mind this POI problem.

[ExSoldier]

I wouldn’t lose sleep over that. They’d refuse the job....”behind every blade of grass there would be a gun.” They’d get the job done by having our own elected officials turn against us.

Sadly to say in such a situation I think that fully 90% of the armed American populace will meekly roll over, show their bellies and beg not to be harmed. Sheep. Just say the gun owning population is 100 million. I think 90 million will simply surrender in the face of overwhelming odds. The good news is that leaves a force of over 10 million many of whom will be veterans and many of those will have combat experience. A good portion of those will be combat troops of the special forces persuasion whose bread and butter is tying indigenous civilian forces into an effective means of regime change.

The country may rapidly change hands but it will not do so quietly. I think that as in Iraq, winning the peace will be much more difficult than winning the war. However the globalist traitors in our own country will have made things much easier for the opposition. Remember the scene from the great 1980s movie Red Dawn? Where the Russkie tells the Cuban to go to the gun stores and retrieve forms 4471 with lists of gun owners to round up?

That's only a start. Identifying civilians hostile to the occupying force will be frighteningly simple, thanks to interconnecting databases. Anybody that's a member of NRA, GOA, CCRKBA or even (and maybe especially) the John Birch Society is a target. Especially if they're former military. Other indicators: Subscriptions to gun mags or hunting license history. Membership in the scouts (teaches self sufficiency). The possible permutations are endless. Once it gets rolling there will be no stopping the juggernaut without heavy bloodshed and I'm not certain the gene for liberty still exists in sufficient numbers thanks to liberal incursions into public education (that was the reason in the first place) and erosions of our culture.

[JDoutrider]

One must remember (I did the hard way) that tracers work both ways!

" an even moderately maintained AK. Ammo is reasonable too, and in short range defensive situations"

Glad you mentioned that for all the folks that have, or, will purchase one... A lot of the bad guys have purchased these as well (Hey! Spare parts and ammo once you've eliminate the threat!).

This is exactly why one should have a Scoped long gun... a .308, 300 win mag, 30-06, 7mm etc is handy to take them out before they get in range for their weapons!

[P8riot]

I've got several scoped .308s but my very favorite sniper rifle is my AR30 in .338 Lapua. It brings a whole new meaning to the phrase, "reach out and touch someone."

Also, don't forget the benefits of a good suppressed firearm, specially at close range.

[JDoutrider]

That .338 Lapua AR30... awesome! At least it has a muzzle brake!

Does everyone at the range run from your position when you fire it? LOL! My .458 win mag does the same thing... setting off car alarms and the like!

I can't afford a Barret .50, so, I can see my purchase of a Lapua in my future!

[JDoutrider]

Your ten percent figure of those willing and able to defend/restore is high!

Once it gets rolling there will be no stopping the juggernaut without heavy bloodshed and I'm not certain the gene for liberty still exists in sufficient numbers thanks to liberal incursions into public education (that was the reason in the first place) and erosions of our culture.

That's my take as well... gut feeling, fwiw, is three to five percent willing.

That's still a BIG bunch of us!

[TMSuchman]

I was thinking more along the lines of having to deal with 2 legged “varmints”. I still believe that the 9mm has too much velocity to be much effective. It has a bad habit of punching through your target and leaving them still standing. This is why most LEO’s went to the .40 cal for more knock down power, but there is a heck of a lot of 9mm laying around to scrounge up in a worse case scenario.

Just my $.02 worth.

[Diana in Wisconsin]

Thanks! It’ll be my husband’s money, so in other words, money for my new shotgun is no object...to me, LOL! :)

(I will point him in that direction, though...) :)

[300winmag]

As long as SKSs are still "relatively" cheap, people should purchase at least TWO plus a couple of thousand rounds of ammo, and seal it all properly in PVC...and bury it for later!

Please, do not use PVC for any storage. It outgasses a dilute hydrochloric acid. Look for surplus sonobouy storage tubes, which are made of polyethylene, and already have a nice screw-cap on one end, which can be sealed with silicone sealant. Only bury some cheap SKS and ammo, to be used as a last last-ditch defense. Someone may find it before you do.

Optics: make sure you have a pair of cheap chicom compact binoculars ($20 or less) for each member of your party. You want as many augmented eyes working for you as possible. A spotting scope is also useful to see them before they see you. Make sure you're working from a covered, shaded position. You're looking for glint from the other guy's optics. He may have a sniper looking for some careless reflection off your optics.

Knives: everyday tools that nobody should ever be without. Everybody who doesn't go through metal detectors should carry a decent pocket knife every day. It's one of those tools that you may never need, but if you do, if you don't have your own, nobody else will, either. Also consider a decent sheath knife for every defensive weapon deployed.

Sales: Keep an eye out for the magic word SALE or CLOSEOUT. You may find some great deals out there to upgrade your present equipment at the least likely moment. Keep your older gear. In a crisis, you may be able to turn a trustworthy-but-unprepared neighbor into a valued backup, once you instill some rudimentary skills into him to offset his neglected education.

[sig226]

I’ll add a concern for the budget conscious. If you’re seriously considering a weapon for a SHTF scenario and you don’t want to spend over $1200.00 for a rifle and shotgun, seriously consider a Remington 870 combo gun. This is available in 12 and 20 gauge. I’d get the 12 because the cartridge has more power, but if you have people in your family who are sensitive to recoil, the 20 is a good choice. It is also lighter, in case you had to take it out hunting and had to walk for some time. The ammunition choices are almost equal, with more buckshot loads available for the 12 gauge.

The combo includes a rifled barrel with sights and a 26” or 28” smoothbore barrel. Get the 26”. It’s a little easier to swing. You can get these guns for $400.00 if you shop around.

It comes with a modified choke. Spend $15.00 and get an improved cylinder choke tube for it. This is a better choke for a lot of small game hunting.

Now get a tactical barrel. This is a 20” barrel with a smoothbore so you can shoot buckshot. If you look around, you can get one of these for $125.00, or less, in excellent condition. This is for the 12 gauge, although they make similar barrels for the 20, but they will cost more.

Now get a magazine extension. It costs $40.00 and increases the capacity of the shotgun to seven rounds from five.

You now have a shotgun that can put food on your table. You can attach the 20” smoothbore barrel and use buckshot for close up protection. You can attach the rifled slug barrel and now you have a gun that is accurate and deadly out to 150 yards. It will kill a moose, a deer, a bear, or a two legged predator.

You’ve spent $580.00 and the whole thing will fit in a dresser drawer. Don’t forget the ammunition.

I’ll also add that if you’re really concerned about the world coming to an end, buy yourself a couple of cases of .22 LR cartridges. If the world as we know ended, money and gold would not have worth. Ammunition would. .22s are cheap and compact.

[ExSoldier]

Your ten percent figure of those willing and able to defend/restore is high!

~SIGH~ Yeah, I know. I actually think the number of those who'll truly commit to an all out insurgency is about one or two percent. Three percent, max.

[hiredhand]

IF the contents of the tube are properly protected, PVC will "do the trick", but you are correct about the gas permeation from the plastic. Do you know of a good source for sonobouy tubes?

[300winmag]

Do you know of a good source for sonobouy tubes?

Unfortunately, I haven't found anything recently, even with the help of search engines. This is stuff you can pick up at gun shows, but there's always a couple of BATFE agents and their snitches there, even the small ones. You might look at "military surplus" stores, although our military produces very little "surplus" any more.

A good discussion (and some possible sources) is Survival Blog discussion on caching.

[NFHale]

I LOVE my dowdy old SKS (”Olga”)...if you don’t expect too much out of her, that is, beyond what she was designed for, she’ll never let you down.

300 meters (very optimistic, I know) max - that’s what it was designed for. I took off the wooden stock and replaced it with something more modern (and longer length of pull for my monkey arms). All in all, it does what I want it to do when I use it. 7.62x39 is a capable round.

The AK is a little rougher fit and finish wise, but just as reliable (other than the crappy ergs). Everyone in the house can handle both of these with ease, and that was the purpose for both purchases. If I come across an SKS that takes AK mags, I’ll pick that up too.

I like Commbloc weapons...it’s the ONE thing those dumbass Borscht-sucking B*stards did right.

[M Kehoe]

A gun porn thread is always fun to bump. A gun porn thread bump is always fun. Fun is always a gun porn thread bump.

Did I just mangle the Queen's English? Or do I have too much time on my hands?

5.56mm

[hiredhand]

The SKS and AK variants are hard to beat! They "digest" everything, and spit it back out....oiled or not!

Have you ever perused the "add-ons" for SKS by D.C. Engineering? I can't remember their home page, but if you google it, you'll find it I'm sure. They have some cool items for the SKS. :-)

[JDoutrider]

I swore never to purchase com-bloc weapons... I think I could rescind that vow nowadays.

Sure wish I could have brought home some of those "War Trophies" from the war!

[TMSuchman]

As a follow up to the High Point rifle, I spoke to an engineer at High Point, and he stated that there was some thought on a .22 version, but they could not get the proper pressures in the chamber for a “blow back” system to work right. They plan for the rifle to use all types of the calibered ammo. so the firearm would work properly. They were working on a .45 ACP version though. He also stated that people use all different types of ammo. of the type caliber called for in the firearm, but due to the inconsistencies in the manufacture of ammunition.

[Rockhound]

I sat home all last week dealing with life without power after Hurricane Ike, cleaning up storm debris, siphoning gas, running the generator, etc.

I live in a rural area, and anticipated no problems. Just the same, part of my storm prep involved loading a few magazines to have handy just in case.

So, what did I pick?

1. CZ82 pistol, in 9mm Makarov. two 12-round magazines.
2. Yugoslavian AKM underfolder with lazer sight, two 20-round magazines.

Both are very reliable and would get the job done.