Posted on 08/16/2008 5:38:38 AM PDT by WesternCulture
With all due respect, I'm pretty sure Dubya & Co will continue being the laughing stock of international affairs over here in Europe for a long time (- Hey, I'm aware you Americans have invested him with the highest of US offices, but I wrote "With all due respect" initially, so I won't drone on about how much many of us Europeans actually admire America, our common interests etc, out of sheer courtesy:D).
Europe and the US will remain best friends and just like my (personal) best friend since 30 years and I squabble from time to time (I'm 39), we're all in this civilization together - and together, we have a responsibility towards our origin as well the future of Western civilization.
Has the era of George W Bush defended as well as promoted Western values?
Most Conservatives around the globe probably agree, by today, that Reagan and Churchill made the right decisions in the field of global affairs of their time.
No sane person would wish to blow up an innocent little child playing in the street, whether that innocent little child happens to have been born into the totalitarian barbarity of Nazism, mid 19th century Japanese militarism, or the present Islamist disaster of government that currently plagues the remnants of a culture that once was known as Persia.
The men who truly understand what Niccolò Machiavelli was on about usually make good leaders (- and by the way, it ought to be acknowledged more often that Macchiavelli was a true Florentine republican who supported the idea of democracy ALTHOUGH he accepted the tradition of "i principi" - the monarchic despot rulers of Renaissance Italy/Europe of his time).
However, many of us Europeans doubt Bush JR is a new Reagan, Lincoln or Churchill.
There are some obvious reasons for this;
- The Bush administration has, more or less, apologized for the invasion of Iraq and seems to have given up on establishing law and order in the country. Perhaps this frustrated situation could all be blamed on Europe, but what good will it do?
- The Bush administration continues to be lenient towards the phenomena of illegal immigrants, especially those coming from south of the border. This is indeed something that continues to upset and irritate a lot of good, hard working Americans.
- The Bush administration has failed to maintain good relations with Europe. As a European, I'm well aware there are plenty of ignorant French, German and Italian crybabies among our "intellectuals". However, I'd say that while most of Western Civilization and our closest allies by today recognizes Reagan as a great leader of the free world, GWB never will be viewed in that way in my part of the world.
- The Bush administration has prove unable of coping with what might be the most severe threat to the US economy since the Great Depression, namely that of the Euro. The European economy is marked by slow growth since decades, but that doesn't matter much in this context as the fast decline of the USD we've seen in recent years constitutes a situation American economy doesn't seem prepared for. If American companies, at large, knew how to do business on European soil, the present conditions might have been of great advantage to overall American business life, but sadly enough we see very little of such initiatives taking place.
Europe can't tell the US what to do as well as vice versa and most good Europeans, in resemblance with good Americans, understand that's NOT what neither of us are here for. But let's continue the dialog for whatever it's worth - and in my opinion, preserving Western Civilization is worth a lot.
The invasion of Iraq might have been necessary sooner or later and the WOT absolutely is, but I also think most Westerners agree it's a better idea to fight these wars in a truly UNITED manner than to continue throwing mud at each other. Let's leave that to our teenagers on both sides of the pond.
Soldiers from many civilized nations (including mine), have died in the WOT and this fact alone calls for more of unity and determination among nations who are truly devoted to the irrepressible idea of human freedom.
Whatever one might say, George W Bush tried hard to become a new Reagan and some might say he was successful.
However; governments come and go, the US and other truly strong nations will, eternally, prevail.
The usual (cold hearted:D) love from Old Europe,
WesternCulture
“...while Europeans like I, continuously, will be enjoying beers originating from our own soil...”
I like the way you drink. However, “drink” merely rhymes with “think”. Think, if you will, how it came to be that you are now able to enjoy that beer and the distinct possiblity that if it were not for VE Day (1945), Winston Churchill and the United States of America, you may never have been born.
Too bad organizations like the UN are so inept, not to mention all the other nations of the world immune to doing the heavy lifting...
so the US is left with the choice of doing what it can or saving the WHOLE world all at once. NO middle ground or gray area for the BDS crowd!
meanwhile it’s baffling to me how those criticizing Bush do absolutely zero in this world to promote freedom, not just of others, but even for themselves!
George Looney Clooney and his ilk actually criticized Condi Rice and Bush/Cheney for “doing nothing in Darfur”.
It escapes such lunatics had they not undermined every single action from this administration from day one, much more could have been done on the freedom front for places just like Darfur!
Wonder how those North Koreans starving and in gulags view Clinton? Or ObamaNation of Islam?
For that matter, who would the North Korean intelligentsia like to see as next president...ObamaNation or McCain?
algore or Bush?
Heinz-Kerry or Bush?
Awesome reply! *cheering, clapping, whistles*
Most Conservatives around the globe probably agree, by today, that Reagan and Churchill made the right decisions in the field of global affairs of their time.You had me until there.
- When Americans claim Europe “doesn't matter”, it's either an expression of plain ignorance or fruitless escapism.
It's just as senseless a phenomena as that of young Europeans burning the American flag or that of European journalists experiencing wet dreams about changing US foreign policy by the daily drivel they believe to be oh so full of insight into global affairs.
Many Europeans are fools, BUT Europe is the largest economy on Earth and the global situation of today isn't that bad compared to the thousands and yet thousands of years marked by Asian invasions, pestilence, havoc and internal strife we have survived.
I am a son of the Vikings and to me, Europe and especially the Nordic countries - namely Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Iceland and Norway - seem stronger, richer and more aware than ever before throughout history.
For instance, the above mentioned nations have a combined GDP that actually is 125% of that of Russia's(!). No, it's not only about Norwegian oil funds - the Nordic countries today has a military production capacity that, given half a chance, could ridicule any such effort Russia could come up with.
It's about housing some of the most able industrial plants of Europe (Sweden is one of the world's largest producers/exporters of radar technology, electronic equipment, missiles, explosive materials (not solely blond women), trucks, buses and other such vehicles - translate this into ability of spewing out tanks!)
On top of this, many experts would agree my country, Sweden, still has some of the best soldiers on Earth (the clip linked to below is a bit old, but Swedes will continue to make good soldiers just like Americans).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkeQ1sNUOKE
Making Russia look a fool and eternally securing the position of Protestantism is no small accomplishment by a small nation (check out Charles XII or Gustavus Adolphus on wikipedia or anywhere else on the Internet).
I think America has done a good thing in Iraq. I think Iraq will be a living monument to American power and good will. Who else could have done what America has done there? The Abu Ghraibs and other blemishes will fade as Iraq flourishes.
The weaker dollar is good for our export industry. Thanks to American nursing over the last 50 years, Europe is back on its feet and is now quite competitive with us. It seems natural that the value of the dollar v euro would reflect this.
At the end of the day, I just think the world will naturally feel spite towards the American top dog, especially when there’s no powerful common enemy around like there was during the time of Reagan and Kennedy (I’m thinking of the USSR of course). I think George W. Bush didn’t so much cause the spite as much as crystallize it. It had been there, pent up, but because of the particular moment in history and because he fit certain stereotypes, he caused it to precipitate.
I think the international left has worked with the particular nationalisms of the world to poison people’s minds against America. People have a natural tendency towards nationalism, envy, and fear, so it’s an easy job. Both the European Left and the European Right hate America and always have. Sure there’s a less toxic center, but the passionate thinkers hate America and set the tone. As Jean-Francois Revel said in his bestselling (in Europe) book, anti-Americanism is the string that binds Europe together. So be it. The problem is yours not ours.
And then there is the simple fact that the world doesn’t understand America as well as it thinks it does. I would say the world understands America about like a 12 year old understands romance, which is to say not very well. That lack of understanding leads to misjudgement, which is what we have now.
That's IF there is anybody left to remember anything about the Europeans once they disappear into the Caliphate.
"...we have a responsibility towards our origin as well the future of Western civilization."
You'd never know it from their actions.
Agreed and good to hear. Don’t let waves of negative opinions of Bush in regards to the WOT and Iraq color your opinion at this point. Time will allow for a more clear and objective assessment of his presidency.
When someone refers to the current President as “junior”-even capitalized in your case- they are being very condescending right off the bat.
You should check out what was said about Reagan at the time versus what is thought now. To say “GWB” will never be thought of some way in the future is beyond your capabilities as a seer.
- You’re absolutely right.
The US has supported true European freedom throughout the tragedy and destruction of two devastating world wars including the madness of Eastern Europe suffering under Communism and that effort of yours is something of eternal value that never will be forgotten.
Still, I’m convinced that decent, freedom loving Europeans like me will continue to resist tyranny 50 years from now and likewise that there wil be much of that spirit in America too.
As Westerners and free men we share a great responsibility and giving up to foreign oppression ought to be just as unthinkable to us as, for instance, the brave soldiers of Finland who crushed Stalin’s attempt at conquering Finland during WW2 (concerning the “Winter War”: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War)
The problem is that American companies try too hard to do business on European soil. By that, I am speaking of the willingness to embrace the flawed idea of global warming and that mankind is the cause, that higher regulation and taxation are basically good things, and that corporations should focus on "social responsibility" (meaning lefty causes) first and make profit-seeking secondary...at least as far as public relations go.
To do a "better job" of conducting business in Europe would mean that Europeans (by and large) and their tax-loving governments would have to relax their own restrictions as to the operation of Free Enterprise.
Extremely doubtful. I don't think the Caliphate approves of alcohol.
- Perhaps I went too far, but I hope you understand that I'm not very much of a supporter of the never-ending flow of PC European stupidity I have to endure each and every day in my part of the world either.
I prefer George W Bush to Hans Blix and please let me tell you several Swedes aren't overly impressed with the latter either.
IMO, GWD rushed the invasion of Iraq, but that doesn't mean I'm anti-American, it simply means I believe there was a lot of prestige in connection with it all and that neither George W Bush or European leaders Chirac behaved like true statesmen. If I sound like any sort of a basher, I sincerely apologize fellow freeper.
“Extremely doubtful. I don’t think the Caliphate approves of alcohol.”
- What makes you think beer-lovers approve of Caliphates?
Just an educated guess from the demographics and the acceptance of Sharia law, etc.
“Just an educated guess from the demographics and the acceptance of Sharia law, etc.”
- I’m not saying Islam does NOT constitute a threat to Europe. It does.
But let’s not overestimate the threat of such a weak doctrine.
Islamism is for losers and a lot of Europeans “Muslims” don’t wish to have anything to do with the insanity which they where born into.
A question;
Malmö, one of the largest cities in Scandinavia, has definitely recieved to many Muslim immigrants, no doubt about it, but do you actually believe this to mirror reality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V_IWsK5BAo
In Europe, Fox News is not treated as a serious media even by Conservatives.
Correction:
In my former post I was trying to write
“Islamism is for losers and a lot of European “Muslims” don’t wish to have anything to do with the insanity which they were born into”.
One day, all of the world will master English - how true that is.
Sorry.
My mother was Swedish. My business partners are Swedish. I have co-authored books with Swedish friends, I am enrolled in a Swedish University, and I and my family are spending about three weeks in Gotenberg next month.
I love Sweden--its one of the prettiest places in the world filled with smart, productive, and genuinely nice people. And that doesn't change a thing about my previous post. You see, almost everything you said is true. However there are facts that color my opinion of European (and Swedish) opinion:
1. Europeans always hate the American president unless he is a socialist and buys into what I believe is a fantasy world that Europeans, by and large, inhabit on the subject of force and soft power.
I understand the history. The worst wars have been fought in Europe. Europeans don't want more wars. But it does not follow from that desire that Europe should effectively disarm themselves--especially relative to its wealth. The meme that not having weapons and appeasing barbarians will prevent war has been firmly established in most of Western Europe since WWI and in all of Western Europe since WWII. It is fundamentally wrong and has been proven so over and over. But nothing will shake it. The eighties were ridiculous. Most of Europe was furious at Reagan for not letting the them lose the cold war.
Unfortunately, that meme colors all European opinion about American leadership. American leaders who pretend or think that meme is correct will always be loved by Europeans. And the reverse.
2. Manifestly, the Scandanavian countries could (the operative word here) outdo Russia militarily, if they chose to do so. But they won't. It's a matter of will. The poorly educated, poorly equipped, barbarian (Muslim or Russian), will prevail over cultures that are well-fed and comfortable in the long run. Russia has just put down its marker in Georgia. The Ukraine is next. Will anyone in Europe do anything except protest firmly? Of course not. Europe has spent decades disarming itself and sitting still while Russia grabbed a stranglehold on European energy supplies? I know who Adolphus was and what he accomplished. But there is not a single leader in Europe today that is fit to hold his chamber pot.
3. You have an enormous demographic problem, like the rest of Europe. I do not think you can prevent a Muslim takeover without genocide or mass deportations. I regularly pray that doesn't happen.
Mind you. I don't exempt my nation from the same criticism. I believe all of Western Civilization is teetering on the edge of extinction. Europe is further down that road than America; but not by more than 50 years. We are all fat, wealthy, self-indulgent societies that have a very difficult time facing reality. We get mad at politicians who make us confront reality. (That's why there is no Adolphus in Europe. He couldn't get elected.)
Reality is that there will always be hungry barbarians at the gates and wealthy, civilized nations must actively and steadily keep them at bay. Fantasy is the barbarians will behave themselves if we just took more time to understand them.
Reality is that cultures who are so self-obsessed that they don't have enough babies to reproduce the culture MUST import barbarians to support the non-reproducers when they are older. Fantasy is that the barbarians will become good Americans or good Swedes.
So I intend to enjoy Europe while its there and mourn its loss if I am still around when it happens. I doubt I will live long enough to see the final nails in America's coffin. But I bet my grandkids will. In the meantime, I won't spend much time worrying what Europe thinks about my President. In almost six decades, I have come to the conclusion that European opinion on that subject is usually wrong. But then, so too is most elite American opinion.
To answer the question:
The Bush Administration will be remembered as the Administration that kept us from being attacked on our soil again after 9/11.
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