Posted on 08/13/2008 8:18:54 PM PDT by BenLurkin
PACOIMA Police say a Pacoima man couldn't take the noise from his neighbor's car stereo anymore and shot him to death early Wednesday morning.
Raymundo Serrato, 58, died at the scene of the 2:15 a.m. shooting in the 13000 block of Kelowna Street, said Officer Kate Lopez of the Los Angeles Police Department's Media Relations Section.
Lopez said the man was shot by a Jubenal Guillen, 55, during a dispute. Guillen was arrested on suspicion of murder.
"There were words exchanged; a scuffle," LAPD Detective Pat Barron said. "And after the scuffle -- or during the scuffle -- the suspect produced a firearm and shot the victim."
A woman who lives in the neighborhood said that the younger man regularly came home in the early morning hours and made a lot of noise, which may have upset his 58-year-old next-door neighbor.
"So I guess he, just, probably, had enough. He had enough, so he shot him," Lisa Velasquez said.
Appears to be a justifiable homocide.
Usually these punks are a lot younger. Why did a 50 something year old man have such a loud stereo?
I can certainly sympathize with anybody who wants to shoot a guy with a loud car stereo. Though I would probably start by shooting the car stereo itself.
Usually these punks are a lot younger. Why did a 50 something year old man have such a loud stereo?
HUH?! What I meanst to say was ... Those loud booming stereos can drive a neighbor mad.
Shoulda had more coffee this a.m.
I believe the facts stated in the quoted story are wrong.
See the LAPD Blog: http://lapdblog.typepad.com/lapd_blog/2008/08/early-morning-d.html
Serrato (58) is the aggreived and harrassed neighbor who is believed to have shot the noise polluter Guillen (55) who is now dead. Serrato is in jail. Guillen is in the morgue.
Let me get out my book on diplomacy. It might come in handy here.
"Nobody Minds." I don't believe it. If you are out in the beautiful peace and quiet of the country, that makes the noise stand out the more, grating and grinding against the harmony of the countryside which your neighbors cherish. You may not cherish the peace and quiet of the country, but your neighbors do. People who have no sense of respect for their neighbors, well, that means they have never grown up. In other words, that means their sense of justice has never matured. Their personal circle of justice has never grown large enough to include others inside of it. It is only the big "me" that matters. They are still caught up in that "mine" mentality of the toddler, my music, my rush, my rights, even if they are still in a body that is 55 years old. In other words, as time marches on in terms of the aging of the body, time has stood still when it comes to the maturing of the soul. "Nobody minds". That's only an ego-centric delusion.
Actually, I think this is true, that 98% of the people do mind. But why they don’t speak up, that is another issue entirely, and one that is more complex.
For example, while 98% of the people would prefer that their right to have peace and quiet on their own property be respected, the amount of effort they will put in to achieving that will vary widely from individual to individual. There are many factors that people will plug into the hassle equation, depending on their circumstances. If the needle on the scale points to the possibility that they will lose more peace by speaking up than they are losing by the noise pollution, they will simply grit their teeth. The fear of the unknown, of what might happen if they speak up, perhaps a reaction that might make things worse, rather than better, will deter most people from stepping forward to confront the noise polluter. But that doesn’t mean they don’t mind or don’t care. They do. And that’s the truth.
> Let me get out my book on diplomacy. It might come in handy here.
> "Nobody Minds." I don't believe it. If you are out in the beautiful peace and quiet of the country, that makes the noise stand out the more, grating and grinding against the harmony of the countryside which your neighbors cherish. You may not cherish the peace and quiet of the country, but your neighbors do. People who have no sense of respect for their neighbors,... that "mine" mentality of the toddler, my music, my rush, my rights, even if they are still in a body that is 55 years old... "Nobody minds". That's only an ego-centric delusion.
You don't understand just HOW far out in the country I live.
And after I did, I set up my PA on max and drove out to the area where my neighbors live and asked them if the noise bothered them. The response was "What noise?" It was inaudible.
So you can take your "no sense of respect for their neighbors" and "toddler" and "delusion" comments and the rest back now. When I said "way the hell out in the country", I freakin' MEANT it. ;-)
Sorry, I just don’t accept the rationalizations of any individual who has the need to pump out way more sound than he or she personally needs to hear. There is something else going on there, something else beyond common sense.
And my sense of this appears to be validated by the fact that we have this story before us, of an individual, who has the same psychology as you, in so far as he feels the need to pump out way more sound than he personally needs to hear, who would literally terrorize his neighbors with this noise pollution to the point, where one of them felt like he had to use a gun to put a stop to it. And here you are, making a point that appears to justify the position of the noise polluter. That there is something sane about desiring to pump out far more noise than you personally need to hear. Just the idea that you would speak up and try to make the (noise polluting) instigator of this violence look like he was partially in the right, well I will tell you this, that is the opposite of common sense.
Your behavior patterns on this point, represent simply an expression of total neglect, apathy, and disdain for the rights of those who you force to listen to your noise. It is totalitarian.
Let’s face it, most civilized people are happy to wear a pair of stereo earphones. I believe that applies to 98% of the population. And that bit of common sense respects the rights of others, and it will keep the peace.
I live in Southern California, and I go hiking a lot. We have a lot of open space land set aside between the subdivisions. And lots of trails. The peace and quiet of nature has a very healing effect upon the soul. And I can tell you, that those who play their stereo’s loud, who live miles away, can be heard on those open space trails, and it pollutes the experience. It is a form of insidious pollution.
Your neighbors, I believe, have simply made the calculation that they would have more peace not having anything to do with you personally, than to complain about the noise you make. Sometimes people feel like they need to make that kind of tradeoff. And this is especially true when people live at quite a distance from law enforcement. Where they have no possibility of getting any kind of assistance or backup in case of a confrontation.
And besides, I wonder if there is National Park, or State Park land around your property, and are there hiking trails on that land? And have you ever considered the point of view of those who use that open space to get away from the sounds of the city? Probably not.
And moreover, the noise levels you produce will certainly disturb the life cycles of all the animals that live within hearing range. Did you ever think about that? Probably not.
Strumming your acoustic guitar near the warmth and light of your campfire, that is one thing. But having a 2,000 watt electric guitar amplifier in the middle of a quiet forest, that is an oxymoronic phenomena if I have ever heard of one.
How am I doing diplomacy wise?
This is a fairly good report by CBS2 News in Los Angeles, concerning this case, getting some good background comments from neighbors.
It looks like the person, Mr. Guillen, who got shot was making trouble for a very long time. I am wondering how that will factor into the disposition of this case?
Heh, I don't think you understand the context yet. I'll try again, but only once more.
I do occasionally play loud music -- we're talking maybe half an hour, maybe once every couple of weeks. Typically to blow off some frustration from work. Figure on average an hour per month.
You're a bright person -- figure it out. That's a duty cycle of less than 1/300.
That's less often than we have thunderstorms. I guarantee you that the thunder is a lot louder than anything I can play, and the thunderstorms last for longer at a time.
With regard to people hiking, well, I'm normally working during the day. I play at night. To the best of my knowledge there are no overnight camping areas within 5 miles of here.
I play indoors, by the way. All that gets out is leakage through windows, which in the winter are shut. In summer, even open, they do a noticeable job of attenuating the sound level.
Wildlife? The animals don't seem to mind, any more than when I drive up the driveway in the truck, or do some target practice with my .22. I've got deer, foxes, raccoons, skunks, wild turkeys, quail, hawks, and a bazillion field critters. They know I live here, and they basically ignore me. I'm just another field critter to them.
My cats just go outside, which they do anyway at their pleasure.
Full disclosure: I will admit to making one hell of a noise for about 15 minutes a couple weeks ago. My family had a very special occasion to celebrate, and we lit off some spectacular fireworks. Now -that- was loud, bright too, and I admit some of the wildlife was a bit spooked. I would say it was, oh, probably an hour before the critters showed up back in the meadow again. They were none the worse for it, far as I can tell.
Anyway, I guarantee you that overall I make less noise than nature does, and less often. And I don't rain or blow wind at the same time, which I'm sure is at least as disruptive to humans and critters as noise by itself.
> Your behavior patterns on this point, represent simply an expression of total neglect, apathy, and disdain for the rights of those who you force to listen to your noise. It is totalitarian.
Now, really, that's just wrong -- you don't seem to understand my "behavior patterns". I think you're confusing me with somebody who makes a lot of noise in a quiet place on a regular basis. I'd be pissed off about somebody doing that, myself. Okay?
I started by saying: "I live way the hell out in the country. Nobody minds." I happen to know that those two statements are true. You are calling me a liar, over and over, and if you keep it up you'll start to annoy me. You don't know what you are talking about, as it applies to my case.
I suggest you stop worrying so much about a problem that doesn't exist. ;-)
I never used the “L” word. And I wouldn’t.
But I would say this. The sense of just how their behavior impacts others, is notoriously inaccurate and self-serving on the part of those who have this desire to play their music 100 times louder than what is needed for comfortable listening levels.
It is a selfishness thing pure and simple, and the “logic” that supports the habit, will shift ground as necessary to make the behavior appear benign in the view of the noise producer himself. I think this is called self-deception.
I think it is interesting that when being challenged, you work in the fact that you own a gun. That’s very interesting.
But most importantly, the fact that you skipped over probably the most important point that I made, validates my thesis. I will repeat it.
[quote] .... we have this story before us, of an individual, who has the same psychology as you, in so far as he feels the need to pump out way more sound than he personally needs to hear, who would literally terrorize his neighbors with this noise pollution to the point, where one of them felt like he had to use a gun to put a stop to it. And here you are, making a point that appears to justify the position of the noise polluter [viz] That there is something sane about desiring to pump out far more noise than you personally need to hear. Just the idea that you would speak up and try to make the (noise polluting) instigator of this violence look like he was partially in the right, well I will tell you this, that is the opposite of common sense. [unquote]
That I believe is the most important point.
> ...those who have this desire to play their music 100 times louder than what is needed for comfortable listening levels.
I am a musician. The times when I play, I'm not "listening" to someone else's music, I'm making my own. And when I'm playing loud, I'm sort of howling at the moon, or maybe making a primal-scream noise -- letting off steam. Maintaining a "comfortable listening level" is a meaningless construct in that context.
> when being challenged, you work in the fact that you own a gun. That’s very interesting.
No it's not. I live in the country. Guns make noise, and it's the only other loud thing I do, other than driving a truck up the driveway. Have you noticed that you're on a forum where probably 80% of the members have guns? Besides, my gun is a .22 rifle, and I plink as a hobby. I have yet to actually shoot a living thing, and a .22 is not very useful for defense. Your suggestion that I mentioned it defensively when challenged is past mere humor -- it's insanely funny. And somewhat offensive, but I'll let that slide.
> ...here you are, making a point that appears to justify the position of the noise polluter
Hardly. What I said was:
"IF the 55-yr old was playing loud [c]rap, I'd probably think about shooting him too."In other words, FRiend, I agree with you that playing loud music, that someone else can hear and doesn't like, is extremely offensive.
You have the opinion that there is no justification for -ever- making loud noise. You are welcome to your opinion; I disagree. You call me names and use strong pejoratives to describe what you -think- I'm doing, but you do not know me or my situation, and you are factually incorrect, and so your language and choice of words is offensive. I ask you to lay off that stuff.
You have demonstrated that you are impervious to facts, such as the circumstances of my living situation, which I went to a lot of trouble and expense to set up precisely so that I was far enough away from other people that those few times when I felt like making some noise I could do so without inconveniencing anybody.
We agree on the REAL point of the discussion, which is that it is obnoxious when people play loud music where other people can hear it. Do you get that? We agree on the principle? Okay.
And I'm willing to agree to disagree on your assertion that there's something intrinsically sick about howling at the moon. Dude, get a grip, people need to unwind.
Anyway, you don't have a freaking clue about my personal situation. You're just wrong -- as it applies here.
Other than that, let's agree that your description probably applies to 99% of -other- people who play loud music near others, and say good night.
You’re only annoyed because I’m getting too close to the truth.
Unwinding, primal-scream, letting off steam, just “adult” versions of the toddler’s “mine, mine, mine” mentality, calcified over the years, providing the current “adult” with an inner barrier of excuses to justify behavior that tramples on the rights of others.
And you avoided my most important point again. Though I will not bother to repeat it.
This debate you cannot win. Your perspective will be forever opposed by the unchallengeable common sense of all civilized society.
And besides, I would assume the park areas near your home are most likely heavily used on weekends, and during the day on weekends, you probably are spreading that noise pollution through the otherwise serene pine trees, and into the ears of the people who are trying to enjoy the peace and quiet of that park land.
What do you think John Muir would say to a 2000 watt amplifier hooked up to an electric guitar in the middle of a forest? Think about that. And then you will come close to understanding how untenable your position is, i.e. in light of common sense.
The similarities in your comment style (ignoring facts, repeating falsehoods, silly posturing) have been obvious for a couple of exchanges, but I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.
Hi, GE. Bye.
LOL, I have had the same desire. I totally understand.
Those who surrender and retreat cannot be considered the victor. The victor is the one left standing on the battlefield with his honor intact. And as for the vanquished opponent, we see only his fading backside and that ever more dimmly through the mounting dust cloud of a hasty and ignominious retreat. My points were simply too sharp for your shield of self-deception to bear. That is the moral of the story, and your retreat a fitting statement to that effect.
And besides, what is that slight against the Legend of King Arthur? What is that all about?
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