SPOILERS: 'Battlestar Galactica's' Adam And Eve?

The following story contains possible MODERATE SPOILERS for the final episodes of "Battlestar Galactica" in the second half of the fourth season. This story also contains RUMORS which have not been officially confirmed, and should be treated as rumor until confirmed by SciFi Channel.

Idle speculation, or is there something brewing here.

A lot of fans were puzzled by the fact that Chief Tyrol was made a Cylon -- a part of the Final Five -- despite the fact that he not only was married, but he had a kid.

"Battlestar Galactica" made a big deal about the hybrid child Hera and how she was the face of things to come. But the same amount of attention has been absent from Nicholas Tyrol, even after it was revealed he himself is a Cylon Hybrid.

So what does this mean? One source for the show says that the future story involving Nicholas and Hera will have its own Biblical proportions -- like Genesis.

I think sometimes contradictions creep into series like BSG because the series is threatened with impending cancelation. Writers then scramble to modify the timeline to squish everything in to the remaining episodes, leaving some dangling bits, rough edges, and outright contradictions.

True, but squishing the timeline need not lead to the kind of contradictions we're talking about. There was no timeline-squishing reason to suddenly make 4 random characters (a drunkard and military disappointment? some PR flunky who happened to take Billy's position? a random mechanic? a former pro athlete?) "Cylons". It's not as if that was a development that was coming later and the fear of cancellation forced them to reveal it sooner. Instead it just came out of the blue and against all logic. You're right that cancellation threat had something to do with it, I think: namely, because they feared cancellation the writers figured they needed a ratings stunt. Well, they got one.

I also suspect there are changes of direction as the series plays out and the writers push off in directions even they did not originally anticipate.

Indeed, this is what happens and this is what writers do. But this is a problem for a sci-fi series like BSG because (1) 'consistency' is more important in sci-fi than in other fiction and (2) a huge part of the appeal of BSG, for the first 2 seasons at least, was that the story seemed well-thought-out and going somewhere. Both of these things have been tossed overboard. You're right that this probably happens to most TV series; if this were Melrose Place it wouldn't matter so much, but this is a science fiction series based on one giant story arc (humans attacked, flee, try to find earth). In that context such contradictions and ratings-driven 'changes of direction' are devastating if not unforgivable.

There’s no “except there wasn’t” there WAS a test it worked, we KNOW it worked. The question then becomes who was actually tested. We know Sharon was tested, we can assume at least one person that scored “human” was tested (I’d guess Geta), everybody else is up for grabs.

Why do you believe he tested anybody after Sharon? There’s no indication of that in the show at all. In fact he even tells his imaginary Six (I think in the episode where Ellen came back) that everybody is going to test human. So even if he really performed the test we know the results he announced. It is settled very clearly, Baltar decides that everybody is going to officially test human after he lies to Sharon. Nothing terribly confusing about that.

Why is there no way he didn’t test Tigh? It makes sense that Tigh would be high on the list, but by the time mass testing has started Baltar has decided to fake the results. Remember he tested Sharon because she requested it while the test was still in development phase, and remember Baltar’s primary motivation is below the belt, so he gave in to the cute girl’s request to score points and validate his test, he then lied to her about the results and waited some time before announcing that the test was complete.

Why would he test Tigh once he decided to lie about the results? Remember we almost never see Baltar in the lab after the Ellen episode, the test takes 11 hours and must be painfully dull, and he’s already decided to lie about the results. If you’re going to lie about the results why do the test? Best case scenario is he spends the rest of his life in that lab finding out who’s a Cylon and not telling anybody, worst case scenario is he creates a paper trail of lying about who is and isn’t a Cylon. There’s no benefit to actually doing the testing once he decides what all the results are going to be, he can just take the prioritized test list and at the end of every month report the next 60 as “confirmed human” and then continue his ongoing chase for tail.

"Baltar lied about the results, but the test was real, and worked exactly as planned."

Ok, I'll have to take your word for it. This wasn't obvious to me watching the show, but admittedly maybe I missed a key line.

This still leaves the question as to why it failed to catch Tigh/Tory/Tyrol.

I don't know how much more obvious it could get - Baltar runs the test, "if it's green you're a normal human being and if it's read you're a Cylon," and almost immediately the entire screen lights up flashing red. His Head Six says something like "Congratulations, you've just captured your very first Cylon" and wonders aloud if she'll kill him rather than be exposed. Baltar panics, so he changes the results and lies to her.

As far as not catching the others, they were never tested. Neither Anders nor Tori had joined the show at that point, so they weren't tested. Very few people aboard Galactica were tested, because the test was ridiculously slow - it took something like half a day for each person. And when Boomer shoots Adama a couple episodes later, everyone presumes that since she had been "cleared" by the test, the Cylon Detector doesn't work and it's scrapped.

So if the Detector not catching them is the basis for the writers not being "consistent," I don't see it.

You paint a plausible scenario but the fact remains that in context, there's simply no way he didn't test the second-in-command (Tigh) and yet somehow tested...Sharon, some random shuttle pilot. (I'll stipulate that maybe he never got to Tyrol.)

The answer is simple - Boomer volunteered for the test while Baltar was still developing it, because she suspected. She insists that he owes her the favor for saving his life on Caprica.

In fact I think the test of Tigh was explicitly shown, or at least its results, though I'm not positive.

I think your memory is playing tricks on you - Tigh wasn't tested, but Ellen Tigh was.

Baltar tests her blood at Adama's request, and clears her as a human.

But anyway so according to your explanation, the test worked, but he decided to lie about any positives. This means that Baltar tested Tigh, saw the positive result, then lied about it.

Baltar may have lied about Ellen's test - it's not made clear, and when asked by Head Six he says he'll "never tell."

I never said I was offended, I said you were being needlessly aggressive. Just because I recognize that you are trying to be offensive does not mean you offended me personally, don’t flatter yourself.

OK, now you're just whining. I've already pointed out that I wasn't calling you mushy-headed. In fact, I pointed out that I said nothing insulting toward you at all, and here you are, many posts later, still whining about how my use of the language appears too aggressive. How do you expect to debate someone over the internet? I'm not going to waste my time trying to think of the most nurturing way to disagree with you. I expect you and the others here to be adults who can handle discussions without crying like a little girl. And yes, now I am getting a little insulting because you are getting annoying. And, in my opinion, you grossly overestimate your grasp of "facts". And this is just a TV show. I'd hate to see how you cry when you get into an actual political discussion.

P.S. I just read over some of your input on this forum, and you come across quite often as a self-righteous, pompous ass, with plenty of "aggressive" language of his own. Apparently you have made a habit out of chiding people for one thing or another. Next time you want to point out the speck in someone else's eye, first remove the plank in your own.

Have a nice day.

I didn’t say you called me mushy-headed. I just pointed out that your need to use words like that shows you are not equipped for fact based debate. Just because you’re not insulting the other person doesn’t make ad hominems not a logical fallacy.

I’m not whining at all, I’m just pointing out that you are not debating. And the fact that you’ve now spent two days complaining about me and not even attempted to address how your “alternate plan” for the killing of Baltar was specifically ruled out in the show by the intel they got just shows that indeed you are not debating, you are not even trying to debate, you are in fact actively avoiding debate.

And the you turn to the insults of the person. Way to prove you quite simply are not capable of discussing things like a grown up. Sad, pathetic really. All high and mighty and 100% incapable of actually debating any topic.

We know Sharon was tested, we can assume at least one person that scored “human” was tested (I’d guess Geta), everybody else is up for grabs.

That is not my recollection, but I don't have time to dig through BSG wikis. My recollection is that Baltar got through most if not all of the Galactica crew, and cleared everybody. Or that this was implied, in a scene like Adama telling someone else (Tigh?) about it. Something like that.

I could be wrong though.

In fact he even tells his imaginary Six (I think in the episode where Ellen came back) that everybody is going to test human.

This is a statement that he intends to lie about any positive test results that come up, as others have pointed out. It doesn't mean he magically/spontaneously stopped after Sharon. On the contrary, it's likely he kept going after Sharon - otherwise what would this statement of intent have meant?

Let's think of it this way: Adama and Roslin and everyone else believed in the Cylon test and wanted to know the outcome. Why would Baltar have "stopped"? And why would they have accepted that?

Why is there no way he didn’t test Tigh?

Well, because Tigh is a high figure and they were all very freaked about Cylon infiltrators. I guess I'd agree that it's theoretically possible he didn't test Tigh, so maybe "no way" is pushing it, but I still say it's the most reasonable inference that he would've tested Tigh.

but by the time mass testing has started Baltar has decided to fake the results.

Okay, so I guess what you're really saying is, after Sharon he went through the motions of a test on everybody, but didn't actually do the actual test on anybody. Well, that's possible, but why not? Wouldn't he have been, at least, curious to know himself? even if he didn't intend to out anybody.

I really don't know though, I admit. I guess I find it implausible that he developed this test, everyone believed in it, but that he somehow didn't test the second in command. And I still believe the show gave the impression that Baltar cleared everybody - with his test. This would have meant that he would know Tigh's Cylon status (even if he didn't tell anyone else). You, however, have come up with a scenario in which he not only decided to fake everyone's results but decided not to even do the test on anybody.

I acknowledge, under that scenario, there would be no inconsistency vis-a-vis Tigh being a Cylon and vis-a-vis Baltar not knowing that he was one. This is all a very murky and convoluted justification though for things that should be straightforward and transparent IMHO.

We have no knowledge of anyone else that got tested. There’s really only two episodes where anything happens with the testing, the ep where Sharon gets tested and the ep where Roslin keeps trying to get Adama tested and he keeps trying to get Ellen tested. Outside of those episodes there is absolutely nothing that indicates what’s going on with the testing. And even if Adama said something like that who says Adama has been told the truth, again Baltar has decided that no one is testing negative, once you make a decision like that there’s no reason to actually DO the tests. It’s a lot easier to not spend 11 hours testing somebody and say they’re human than to spend 11 hours testing and ignore the results.

Nothing magical and spontaneous about it. Why do the tests if you’re going to lie about the results? It’s not like these are quick 5 minute tests, 11 hours each, no parallel testing possible, 61 YEARS to test the entire fleet. Why bother? And remember the statement wasn’t that he was going to lie about the tests, the statement was that everybody was going to be human, big difference.

Think about it this way, Baltar got reminded by his head six that positive tests could be dangerous, why risk it? Sure Roslin and Adama want to know, but he’s already decided he’s not telling them about any Cylons, why run the tests if you’re going to fake all the results. Think like a horndog amoral scumbag like Baltar: are you going to spend 61 years of your life doing these tests, which will seriously impede your sex life, just to ignore the results; or are you going to spend 5 minutes every month spacing 60 blood samples and make up the same results you were going to say anyway?

TV writers give you clues to stuff. When numbers start getting thrown around there’s hints about how things are going to work. When the numbers came out that each test was 11 hours and it would take 61 years to test the whole fleet that was TV writerese for “the test is a McGuffin that’s run it’s course, no Cylons will be detected by it, time to move on”. For most of the show people have died faster than they could have been tested, heck if you’re not going to fake the results when you’ve got that kind of math there’s really no reason to do the test.

But again, why test ANYBODY? There’s absolutely no reason for Baltar, remember who we’re talking about here, to test anybody after his scientific curiosity was satisfied. Once he knew the test worked, and once he decided everybody was going to be human, it over, he washes his hands and moves on. Remember he’s never in the lab again after the Ellen episode, that’s a clue. You see characters where they spend time, at 11 hours a test if Baltar was actually doing the work he’d be in the lab a lot, but he wasn’t.

The why not is time. 11 hours a test, 61 years of work, given birth and death rates a Sisyphusian task, given normal non-war time death rates half the people would be dead before he finished the task, given the death rate in the rag tag fleet forget it. Just think about how many Galatica personal were killed when the Cylons boarded, if he’d taken the 11 hours to do the test (with his own predetermined results) that’s a lot of time wasted. He’s got nothing to gain knowing who all the Cylons are, once he’s lied about the results to Adama and Roslin he has no blackmail leverage, what’s he going to do threaten to “admit” he screwed up a test and months later decided to redo it? Also remember his part in the genocide, it’s not like knowing who the Cylons are tells him who wants him dead, everybody wants him dead they just didn’t know it yet.

I don’t think the show gave the impression that he tested anybody after Ellen, and truthfully the show doesn’t give much of an impression that he even bothered to genuinely test Ellen. I thought after the Ellen episode that Baltar was done actually doing the tests. There’s simply no way to believe Baltar, self serving egotistical horndog Baltar, would perform the most boring inglorious 61 year task in human history, especially once he made it clear the results were pre-determined. Doesn’t seem murky or convoluted to me, seemed obvious in Season 1, with Ellen the Cylon Test plot line was done, and other than asking why Sharon tested human that was basically the last we heard of it.

I’m having a great day. In fact I have pretty much nothing but great days. Part of that is because I can actually discuss topics without having to attack people. You should try it some time, makes conversations much more interesting.

Keep telling yourself that. I read your post history, or at least as much of it as I could stand. You had to be told by not one but two separate people on a single thread to calm down and lighten up, and that was on a thread about White Castle hamburgers! The fact that you have spent the last couple of your posts talking about how you find my use of the language offensive goes way past hilarious into pathetic and delusional.

I stopped debating the topic with you because it dawned on me after a couple of your pompous posts that you weren't worth the time it would take for me to review an episode that was aired over a year ago. Obviously, you are the ultimate Battlestar Galactica fanboy. You spout some disjointed opinion and that pronounce it as pure fact. I have seen that tactic used many times and it is a sure signal that one is dealing with a person who cannot think logically.

So enjoy your show. Revel in it. Good for you.

You never once started debating you’ve had nothing but ad hominems from the start. Not once have you even tried to come up with a single fact, all you do is call people mushy-headed and insist that means you’re right. That’s not a debate, that’s never been a debate, that’s just you stomping your feet.

Bring some facts. I brought facts and the only response you’ve come up with is saying you don’t want to debate the issue. Pathetic really.

I’m the ultimate B5 fanboy. Just a fan of BSG. Nothing about what I’ve stated is disjointed. Kind of funny for the guy who just calls people mushy-headed to claim somebody else cannot think logically, you won’t even try.

Enjoy calling people mushy-headed and pretending that means you’re right. revel in it. Good for you.

Okay, so let's have them [inconsistencies/contradictions]. We can address them one by one.

Cited some in my first post. They included

the alleged difficulty of distinguishing Cylon anatomy (i.e., only Baltar was able to devise a test, and the distinction was only detectable on the molecular level after an 11 hour procedure) being inconsistent with Cylons' apparent sometimes-red-glowing spines
the alleged difficulty of distinguishing Cylon anatomy being inconsistent with their ability to 'download' to the resurrection ship, receive signals etc (which implies some transmitter/receiver mechanism). Along these lines, think of Boomer putting her hand in Cylon goo and interfacing with their computer. Human hands can do this? No. Hands that can do this are hard to distinguish from human hands? I don't think so.
the Tigh=Cylon question not squaring with what we know of Tigh's earlier life, i.e. fighting in the Cylon war, with Adama etc. Those scenes and allusions implied that Tigh was placed in human society prior to the Cylon war. But Tigh being a "Cylon" then implies that skinjob technology existed way back then, which doesn't square with the picture BSG had been painting of a robots -> hybrid -> skinjob progression (that Adama semi-uncovered in between the wars).
the 4 people deciding they were "Cylons" solely because they (1) heard music in their heads and (2) wandered into the same room simultaneously. So the definition of "Cylons" is now "people who are apt to hear music in their heads and get urges to do things"? Who's not a Cylon in that case?
the supposed "Cylon plan" that existed in title cards only
the constant references to "the final five" within the show, as if the characters are all aware they're on a TV show in which things are being sequentially revealed to some viewer

Now, I suppose you'll write back and come up with explanations/interpretations in which all of the above make sense. And hey, knock yourself out, it's all in good fun :) But the thing is, why should we have to do that? Shouldn't it make sense without having to bend over backwards and shoehorn inconsistencies away? People like you will be willing to do that because, essentially, they have become fans of the show and feel compelled to defend it. But people looking at these things objectively will admit that they are at least a little contradictory and don't mesh well.

It’s easy enough to do. One of the things I like about the show is that Moore doesn’t follow the classic TV info model. Classically when something “important” is going to happen TV writers are taught to “tell them what you’re going to show them, show them, tell them what they just saw”. This 3-peat of every point makes sure the audience doesn’t miss anything, it also assumes they’re idiots and dramatically slows plot development (since every point takes 3 times as long to make).

Of course by not doing that Moore risks us missing things, there are a lot of things in the show that seem like throw aways at first that turn out to be important. Significant chunks of the 3rd and 4th season have revolved around the idea that Will Adama’s dad was a civil rights lawyer, which seemed like a minor aside when it was mentioned in the 1st season. But that’s what the internet is for, we point out stuff each other missed.

Have fun.

Let me take a stab at a few of these, it is fun.

Glowing spine: two things here, as we explore the genome of humans and animals we learn that all the creatures on this rock (and presumably BSG rocks) are really really similar, that would include lightning bugs. I don’t know how many genes would have to be changed to make it so humans could glow but I bet it’s not a lot, we’ve already done experiments to give other things (a couple of plants and some fish) lightning bug glow. On the other hand who says they actually glow at all, that could entirely be a “for the audience” thing so we’d know who some of the Cylons are, luckily they decided to show us that with the females, I don’t want to see Dean Stockwell’s naked back.

The download/ interface thing is definitely odd, but who knows. As we get closer and closer to “jack-in” computing it is important to remember that most of our impulses cruise around our body in a way that’s similar to electricity and we already know can be mimicked by electricity. Maybe human hands can go in the Cylon goo and interface, Baltar chickened out so we have no data in either direction on that.

Tigh: who knows. I think that’s part of the big reveal. My guess (100% totally unsupported by ANYTHING in the show so far, though not contradicted either): some human was screwing around with “merging” Cylons and humans before the first war and this is where the originals like Tigh came from. This would also explain why the Cylons put so much work into skin jobs, because they knew it could be done.

The reveal of 4: remember it wasn’t just the music and the location. Both Tigh and Tori have said a switch went off in their heads and they knew. Which is consistent with how head Six described the awakening of deep sleeper Cylons, they wouldn’t know and then they would.

The plan: they did have a plan. They were going to replace the humans, that got hosed up by Caprica Six and Boomer Eight at the end of season 2. But they did have a plan.

The Final Five: what else should they call them. Both humans and Cylons knew (through various means) there were 12 models and knew they only could identify 7 of the 12. There’s going to be some label for them, The Other Five, The Mystery Five, The Five We Don’t Know About, might as well be The Final Five, has a good ring to it.

There are certainly things that don’t mesh well, and things that are odd. But that’s part of story telling, especially when the story is incomplete. I remember when B5 was going on at one point a lot of the fans were complaining to JMS about how much the story was a generic “good vs evil”, “dark vs light”, it was all so obvious the Shadows were the bad guys and the Vorlons were the good guys and he’d promised something more than that. JMS only ever had one answer, and he said it over and over for a season and a half: wait for it. If you’re familiar with Babylon 5 then you know he was right and the complainers were wrong, but at the time before the story was complete it looked different. There’s still close to a dozen episodes of BSG to go, I’m not going to declare anything contradictory until the WHOLE story is told.

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