Posted on 12/24/2007 7:32:51 PM PST by Extremely Extreme Extremist
13TH AMENDMENT: "If any citizen of the United States shall accept, claim, receive, or retain any title of nobility or honour, or shall without the consent of Congress, accept and retain any present, pension, office, or emolument of any kind whatever, from any emperor, king, prince, or foreign power, such person shall cease to be a citizen of the United States, and shall be incapable of holding any office of trust or profit under them, or either of them."
Rudy was knighted by Queen Elizabeth II on Feburary 13th, 2002.
I might be able to rationalize it that way. I screwed up and didn’t register in time to vote in the primaries here in the state everyone is wooing, deadline was today . . .I thought I’d have to go to Des Moines. That is one thing in the process I don’t understand yet.
The text you cite was proposed an an amendment by Congress, but not ratified. The Thirteenth Amendment is quite different.
Americans accepting honorary knighthoods:
* General Tommy Franks KBE 2004
* Reverend Billy Graham KBE 2001
* General Wesley Clark KBE 2000
* Bob Hope KBE 1998
* George Bush GCB 1993
* General Colin Powell KCB 1993
* General Norman Schwarzkopf KCB 1993
* Lt. Gen. Brent Scowcroft KBE 1993
* Ronald Reagan GCB 1989
* J. Edgar Hoover KBE 1950
* Dwight D. Eisenhower GCB 1945
* General George C. Marshall GCB 1945
* General George S. Patton GCB 1945
* Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitiz GCB 1945
* General Alexander Vandegrift KBE 1942
I think Ike’s honor in 1945 pretty conclusively answers the question. But the question, rather Clintonian isn’t it? On a point you aren’t certain you can win on the merits, find some loophole.
Anyway, Rudy seems in pretty good company.
Yeah but Nimitz wasn’t running to be president.
Your proof is convincing but I doubt any federal court, and definitely not the Congress (which certifies the winner of the electoral college vote, contrary to what Susan Estrich claimed the other day) would accept it.
Now I.9.viii does state:
No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State.
But all that means is that a sitting President cannot accept a title without consent of the Congress.
13th Amendment:
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime where of the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2. Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
The links you point to claiming that the “other 13th” was validly ratified have about as much relevance as those claiming that the 16th Amendment was not properly ratified.
Interesting, but of no real importance, as the courts and the government do not accept their contention.
I think this has already neem ruled on. Honorary knighthood is not included within the meaning of the language; it’s more akin to being named Employee of the Month.
>>>But all that means is that a sitting President cannot accept a title without consent of the Congress.
>>>If any citizen of the United States shall accept<<<
wrong
You need to go read that link again.
Heck he even made toy guns illegal in NYC.
It was erroneously printed as part of the Constitution in some early 19th century texts, an error that has launched a thousand conspiracy theories, because in the mind of a conspiracy theorist anything that appears once and doesn't appear later has been "suppressed" or "whitewashed" or "covered up."
Some of the conspiracy loons even claim that the term "esquire" constitutes a title of nobility, which it doesn't, so any lawyer is constitutionally ineligible to hold office, based on a foreign title he doesn't hold and a constitutional provision that isn't there.
I couldn't make this stuff up.
As far as royal orders go, the Brits consider them real, but the US considers them honorary. A short list of Americans who have been awarded various British orders: Gen. Wesley Clark, Bob Hope, Gen. Norman Schwartzkopf, Gen. Colin Powell, President George H.W. Bush. President Ronald Reagan, Former SecDef Caspar Weinberger, Oil tycoon John Paul Getty, Orchestra conductor (and Woody Allen's father-in-law) Andre Previn, former House speaker Tom Foley, former Fed chairman Alan Greenspan, and Microsoft founder Bill Gates.
That's just going back less than a decade.
Until you can get a federal court or the Congress to buy your “other 13th” Amendment argument, what you have is Article I, Section 9, paragraph 8 — which pertains to only “any Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them (the United States).”
I find the “other 13th” Amendment arguments more convincing than the “16th Amendment was never properly ratified” argument, but as I say, my opinion isn’t important. RoE, are there links to good arguments against the “other 13th?”
The U.S. Constitution Online FAQ
Q151. "Rudy Giuliani seems to be running for President in 2008. But in 2002, Giuliani was given an honorary knighthood by Elizabeth II. I'm wondering if this would place a restriction upon his candidacy?"
A. The relevant part of the Constitution is Article 1, Section 9, Clause 8, which states: "No Person holding any Office ... shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any ... Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State." Basically, no one in the government is to take any present, gift, or title from any foreign power.
The first issue is that Giuliani is not a part of the U.S. government - and the Emoluments Clause is pretty clear that it applies to current employees of the government. The Plain Meaning test would probably let Giuliani slide by if he had a title; but a sitting President would be barred from accepting the title.
However, the Emoluments Clause does have a caveat - the acceptance can be authorized by Congress, and Congress has done just that. In 5 USC 7342, Congress authorized the acceptance of "order[s], device[s], ... [or] award[s]" from foreign governments, so long as they are authorized by the employee's department and are of minimal real value. In this code, the President, Vice President, and all members of Congress are considered employees, as are spouses and soldiers.
Generally, titles bestowed upon foreign governments are honorary only, especially within the United States. Many people in government and in private life have been given titles, such as Bill Gates, Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, Norman Schwartzkopf, Wesley Clark, Jerry Lewis, Bob Hope, Collin Powell, Tom Foley, and Charlton Heston.
You need to go read a published version of the Constitution, complete with amendments. Your version of the 13th isn’t in there.
Possibly it should be, but it isn’t. Therefore any attempt to sue to invalidate Rudy’s election on this basis wouldn’t work.
There are published versions at the link provided.
Okay, you need to go get an official version of the Constitution as published by the goverment and accepted as official by the government and courts.
You do realize that your version of history throws off the numbering of all subsequent amendments by one? Which means that in your alternate universe the 14th Amendment freed the slaves, the 17th Amendment allowed for an income tax and the 19th instituted Prohibition.
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