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Locked on 12/13/2007 11:50:58 PM PST by Jim Robinson, reason:
Discussion continued here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1939278/posts |
Posted on 12/12/2007 6:27:59 PM PST by jveritas
Dear FRiends
It really pains me to see some of those vicious anti-Mormons attacks we see on Free Republic disguised under the “freedom of speech. Attacking people based on their Mormon faith is really disgusting and it is an insult to this great forum. People who do not like Governor Mitt Romney based on his positions are free to express their opinion as such, but people who attack him because he is a Mormom should be ashamed of themselves and must not be allowed to do so.
I greatly hope that Free Republic members and moderators will get together and help in stopping this anti-Mormon vitriol, this great Free Republic must not be tainted by these shameless acts.
Yes, I had thought about the trolls deliberately stirring the stew. I’ve chatted nicely with a few of them until them imploded and were “banned”. You really can kill them with kindness. One fellow wanted for me to explain why I didn’t wish for my 9 year old to know what homosexuality was?
It can get heated in some of the religion threads - that’s something that people are passionate about. I don’t mind disagreeing. At times, the obvious intent of some who descent from each other is that they offend. That’s not the way to truth.
I had some fellow the other night tell me that I had no right to be offended by the VT halloween “jokesters”. In fact, they do have a right to be idiots and, yes, I am entitled to be offended by them.
I’ve come to the point with many of the idiots; that I am simply going to put them on a shun list.
And what is my "minority opinion"?
And what is this, :^)
Jim Rob does not run this place by polls that I'm aware of. That's what liberal presidential candidates do.
Joseph Smith ran for President of the United States in 1844 and part of his platform was to end slavery.
http://www.blacklds.org/mormon/platform.html
I doubt very seriously that if someone were to question the validity or sanity of any of your beliefs that you would whine and call them "Anti-Deist Bigots!"
It seems that anytime someone calls into question the bizarre unique beliefs of the Mormons, they are labeled Anti-Mormon bigots. And anyone who might question whether or not those beliefs might translate into questions about judgment are labeled Anti Mormon Jihadists.
Would I feel more comfortable with a deist than a Mormon as president? I suppose I would. There is just too much baggage that goes along with Mormonism. Too many unanswered questions. Too many secrets. Too many people ready to smear anyone who dares to question their peculiar beliefs and practices.
Will I vote for Romney? I predict he will get the nomination. I will vote for him unless Giuliani is his running mate. In the meantime I will prepare for 4 years of Hillary, who is obviously going to portray herself as the true Evangelical Christian candidate in the next election.
God help us all. (I know... you don't believe he will. Cest la vie).
Thus a call for an F.R. poll to determine whether the original poster's request to stifle opposition posters be instituted as a rule.
Sounds Clintonish to me.
It will take a while to go through all the distortions you posted, I have to dig up corroborating documentation while all you have to do is toss out some half remembered jibber jabber.
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“The people of Missouri supported slavery.”
That point is true. And Parley Pratt showed the Mormons were of the same persuasion.
“The people of Jackson County quickly decided that they didn’t like mormons, and proceeded to drive them out of the county, burning their homes, killing their livestock, etc.”
That also is true, but of course you left out why they up and took a disliking. It certainly wasn’t due to the slave issue, but because the Mormon’s swarmed communities en masse and took over the voting. Were injustices done? You bet. But if you go far back in Rigdon’s and Smith’s history you will find they always viewed Mormonism as a political and military as well as religious crusade. People don’t just drive other people out without any reason (heck, they didn’t even treat Jews or Shakers or Amish this bad)
“The Mormons petitioned the governor of the state for redress to which he replied that he had no power to protect them.”
True.
“The Mormons left Jackson County for Clay County, where they remained until they were compelled to leave.”
More or less true. However, concurrently Smith and Rigdon were in Kirtland busily running the banking scam that drove both the Kirtland Anti Banking Society and the Monroe Bank (which Cowdry and Smith had also purchased) into dissolution. So Smith and Rigdon hightailed it out of town to avoid being tarred and feathered, heading to Far West.
This is where Smith also ran into trouble, because he and his bunch had apparently double sold land in Far West to fellow Mormons. This is also where Smith decides he is a budding General and leads a group back to retake “Zion” (Jackson county), but is stopped because of a cholera outbreak. This is the real start of the Danites.
“After Clay County, they moved to Far West in Caldwell County. After some time in Caldwell County, the citizens of Missouri decided that they still didn’t like the Mormons, and organized to drive them out of the state for good.”
An agreement had been reached with the state to avert trouble that the Mormons would stay in Caldwell County and not encroach on other communities. There was a dust up over voting between Gentiles and Mormons which led to Sydney Rigdons “Salt Sermon” that called for extermination of the Gentiles should the Mormons be hindered again. This led to the formation of the Danite vigilantes, which were governed by Joseph Smith who gave a number of speeches to them. Smith was a tinpot general.
“In support of this effort, two apostate mormons signed affidavits asserting the existence of a secrete Band of Mormons that were planing on razing America. This group, however, was not supported by the LDS church, and its leader was excommunicated as soon as his secret group was discovered by church leadership.”
Absolutely false, Avery wasn’t excommunicated until well after the burning of Galatin and the battle of Crooked River. And those apostate Mormons you disdain witnessed a bunch of the Mormon thieving of property that went on.
“As tensions built, rumors were spread of Mormons destroying property throughout Davies County.”
More than rumors, there were letters dispatched from besieged towns.
“The Missouri milita was called out to prevent civil war. Upon traveling to the area, it was the opinion of the militia’s leader, General Parks, that the Mormons were peaceful and law-abiding and were not guilty of the claimed offenses.”
That was not the final judgment, that was his first judgment which later changed on seeing the evidence.
I can see I need to write half a book to answer your distortions, and do the proper citations rather than just doing this from memory. The last half of your post regarding what happened at Crooked River, and beyond, is full of swiss cheese holes, but alas, I am out of time. Anyone who wants a full history not seen through Mormon peepstone glasses, I will try and make citations later tomorrow.
Spot on. Attacking anyone because of their faith is a truly awful thing and it remains wrong.
But as long as it is okay to attack some, I think it has to be okay to attack all. Just because Mormon seems to be the buzzword of the day doesn't mean that other faiths haven't taken their knocks recently, too.
I would personally be fine with doing away with all religious-based attacks, but I don't see that happening anywhere in the American political arena any time soon.
Not as long as politicians use their supposed personal piety as a campaign issue. Not as long as commentators use religion to boost their ratings. And not as long as the American people allow them to get away with it and in some cases demand that their politicians jump through the "religion" hoop rather than the "honesty" hoop or the "personal integrity" hoop .
It's a sad thing to have to type that.
the reason the gracious Moderator will likely not pull my post
There is probably a simpler explanation. No one requested any such thing. I just thought yours was a noteworthy example of what passes for open, honest, and especially dignified reactions to all things Mormon. You just happen to be one of the best examples IMHO. Congratulations.
PS, What part of Harry’s domain do you come from? Weather permitting, I’ll be in Vegas for the Consumer Electronics Show in Jan.
[Your “history” is like the “Palestinian history” of Israel.]
Oh wow, you got me there! I’m devastated! Now that you’ve made a wild assed connection between Palestinian history and my description of Sydney Rigdon’s Salt Sermon and the Danite vigilante posse, I guess every argument I make from now on will be completely annihilated by your deep deconstruction of my thinking processes. Only you could have figured me out!
[Wow, justifying an extermination order to kill American citizens just because of their religious affiliation.]
You are a damn liar.
A) Sydney Rigdon issued the Danite extermination order against Gentiles FIRST in his Salt Sermon.
B) Smith led a group of 200 to take back Zion (I guess they were going back to bake cookies, not exterminate a bunch of Gentiles)
C) Bogg’s extermination order had nothing to do with religion, it was because Davies county was under attack, and there was word that Crooked River had been a massacre. Far West was peaceful and calm UNTIL JOSEPH SMITH SHOWED UP ON THE LAM FROM THE KIRTLAND BANK SCAM! A lot of staunch Mormons defected at Far West because they figured out Smith was a crook. How hard is it to read the history!
I may have misread your original post, I get a little quick on the draw.
“What part of Harry’s domain do you come from?”
I’m in Vegas Baby! (it’s obligatory to say that).
“Weather permitting, I’ll be in Vegas for the Consumer Electronics Show in Jan.”
Look me up, I haven’t been to CES in a few years. I used to be at the Venetian a lot. I can perhaps regal you with my Dirty Harry and Dirty Oscar stories. I could write a book, but I wouldn’t live to read it, or so I’m told.
“The manner in which the LDS posters have responded to simple questions about their faith and questions about Romney have, quite frankly, made me a bit nervous about supporting him in the General Election.”
There you go. I’ve had the crap scared out of me numerous times in real life here in Vegas because of that same mentality. If you look up Blood Atonement, you will see where it comes from (though obviously they aren’t killing people like the good old days), and why there is a shadow world of enforcers and the shunned that most people never see. But yeah, once you see that up close, you might understand why I just can’t bring myself to vote for a Mormon at the presidential level. And why the term bigot doesn’t hold much water.
“Joseph Smith ran for President of the United States in 1844 and part of his platform was to end slavery.”
That wasn’t the original question. The statement was made that the Mormons were driven out of Jackson County in ~1837 because they were anti-slavery, that simply wasn’t true. I quoted racist Parley Pratt, one of the Twelve Apostles who was at Jackson County, claiming they were just as racist as anyone else. Smith was at Kirtland at that time busy counterfeiting money, he wasn’t at Zion.
It is a cult jveritas... to me it seem you are attempting to take judgement away from Christians on this subject. One does not have to be “ugly” in the way you condemn cults, but a Christian does have the right to “judge rightly” on the subject. It is a character issue of a candidate, and fair game in my opinion.
IOW... I strongly disagree with you on your premise of silencing civil discussion on the matter.
A candidate’s religious affliation is fair game, no matter what it is. I don’t have a problem with Romney being a Mormon, but I do with Keith Elison being a Muslim, and Pete Stark being an atheist.
Here are a few facts you omitted in your post:
In July 1833, a Mormon printing press was destroyed by a Gentile mob after they learned the Book of Commandments, the precursor to Doctrine and Covenants, called for the extermination of Gentiles in Jackson County, Missouri.
In February 1835, Joseph Smith said:
“… I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left.” – History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 182.Sidney Rigdon's Salt Sermon on June 17, 1838 was addressed to Mormons who disagree with Smith. It is easily confused with his July 4th sermon (see below). The Mormons had fallen into what the historian Bancroft refers to as the First Mormon Civil War. The Saints formed an internal militia, the Danites, and began to engage in "blood atonement" with each other to quell internal dissent. It was in this framework that Rigdon preached:
"Ye are the salt of the earth, but if the salt hath lost its savor, wherewith shall the earth be salted? It is henceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men … If the country cannot be freed of these men in any other way, I will assist to trample them down or erect a gallows on the square of Far West and hand them up as they did the gamblers at Vicksburg, and it would be an act at which the angels would smile with approbation."On July 4, 1938, Rigdon addressed the "Gentile issue" when he preached:
"Our cheeks have been given to the smiters, and our heads to those who have plucked off the hair. We have not only, when smitten on one cheek turned the other, but we have done it again, and again, and again, until we are wearied of being smitten, and tired of being trampled upon … But from this day and hour, we will suffer it no more … and that mob that comes in us to disturb us, it shall be between us and them a war of extermination; for we will follow them til the last drop of their blood is spilled, or else they will have to exterminate us; for we will carry the seat of war to their own houses and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed ... We this day then proclaim ourselves free, with a purpose and a determination that never can be broken – No never! No never!! No never!!!"On October 14, 1838, Joseph Smith declared war on the State of Missouri, a Jihad no less, when he preached:Following Rigdon's speech, the crowd led by Smith broke into wild cheering and then shouted in unison with a thunder that carried over the prairies: “Hosanna, hosanna to god and the lamb!"
"If the people [of Missouri] come on us to molest us, we will establish our religion by the sword. We will trample down our enemies and make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was 'the Quran or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us – Joseph Smith or the Sword" – History of the Church, Vol. 3, p. 167On October 17, 1838, three days after Smith made his "religion by the sword" statement declaring war on the Gentiles, Mormons relieved Daviess County's Gentiles of their "consecrated property."
On October 25, 1938, a Mormon force ambushed two dozen Missouri National Guard soldiers at the Crooked River Massacre. Three guardsmen were killed and the Mormons mutilated their corpses.
On October 27, 1838, Missouri Governor Lilburn Boggs issued the "Extermination Order" to John B. Clark, commander of the Missouri National Guard. This document stated in part:
The Saints surrendered to the Missouri National Guard at Far West on October 31, 1838. Smith, Rigdon and other Mormon leaders were charged with "treason, murder, arson, burglary, robbery, larceny, and perjury" and ordered held without bail. A few weeks later, Smith would escape by bribing his guards -- $850 plus a barrel of whiskey."The Mormons in the attitude of an open and avowed defiance of the laws, and of having made war upon the people of this State ... their outrages are beyond all description.
"The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State if necessary, for the public peace."
A question is not "vicious" because the truthful answer is ugly.
The problem for Mitt isn't the lies about the LDS, the problem is the truth about LDS.
And I'm saying that without hostility - I would certainly vote for Mitt if he were to be nominated.
But the problem with his nomination is what you correctly refer to as a "dumptruck" load of LDS history and doctrine. The reason this isn't a problem now is that no one knows about it.
The MSM isn't going to spill the beans until he's nominated - but then, brother, it will be "game on" - and none of them will even have to tell a lie.
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