Posted on 12/10/2007 7:46:54 AM PST by thefactor
Vick given a 23 month sentence. Plus 3 years of probation. Breaking.
It’s not a matter of gambling on anything, it’s a matter of being involved in an interstate illegal gambling operation and all the unsavory associates who might seek blackmail leverage that implies. Although the NFL keeps a long distance between itself and legal gambling too, it doesn’t even allow Las Vegas to advertise during games. Vick has been banned until further notice and it’s clear from Goodell’s press release it’s the gambling that’s the biggest issue.
No, that’s not at all what I said. What I said was that the sentence was excessive in light of the plea agreement.
And as for Dog Fighting, you must concede that this was legal at one time, correct? You must concede that the treatment of Vick would have been very different 20, 50 or 100 years ago, right?
Personally, I find Dog Fighting to be disgusting and repugnant. But what I find FAR MORE offensive is the way society now places Animals on a pedestal dangerously close to human beings.
You and others are viewing this as an issue about Dog Fighting and Michael Vick. I see the “slippery slope” on where this sort of thing leads.
Like it or not, you guys are all engaged in the sort of “Progressive” thinking that is endemic of the Secular Progressive crowd.
In a society that domesticates, breeds and eats animals, how is there ANY logical or rational basis for treating Dogs as anything other than Chattel or Personal Property of some human? Divorce yourself from your “feelings” for a moment and look at this objectively and rationally.
Surely you must understand the logical incoherence of treating some animals as food or worse, and elevating some animals to quasi-human status. And in the spectrum of that illogical behavior, surely you must see the potential unintended externalities that arise from such a incoherent position becoming the dominant societal view?
The Animal Rights movement is an affront to Humanity and cheapens human life. And whether you guys want to admit this or not, you unintentionally torpedo the overall Conservative view of the world by buying into this “feelings based” view shared by the Secular Left.
MotleyGirl,
You asked me what my punishment for Vick would be. Here’s what I put in a prior post in this thread.
“If Im the judge, he gets 5 years Probation and a sentence which requires him to spend EVERY Saturday and Sunday for the next 5 years working in Community Service in an Animal Rights Shelter for free. That way he learns his lesson and is not allowed to play in the NFL because hes at the Animal Shelter on Sundays. He should spend 8 hours a day every weekend for 5 years cleaning the Excrement and bathing the Dogs. It sends the best possible message to all concerned that there are heavy consequences to your actions, while not perverting the basic fabric of our nation in elevating Animals to exalted status...”
Look, my real problem with this isn’t that Mike Vick is going to jail. I think the guy is a vermin. But, I do have a serious problem with what this entire Vick case means within the larger context of society. Please read my post to Soldier Dad right above which explains what I mean by that.
I remember the days of segregated bathrooms, waiting areas schools.
Now it’s viewed as bad (GOOD!) Society and civilization moves forward. It grows, it learns and it expounds on it’s knowledge.
What we know now is that someone who tortures animals and gets off on animal cruelty has personality traits that mean they are at high risk for harming people, especially the helpless...IOW, they are showing sociopathic traits.
So they need to be monitored closely, if not removed from society when such behaviors get out of control. As in Vick’s case.
Your ‘work in an animal’ shelter scenario would probably have disastrous results. You don’t ‘learn’ compassion and humanity if its not here and negative behaviors & emotions will be exacerbated in such settings.
It’s been a wreck with early SP kids. If you don’t watch those kids closely, animals mysteriously die. Again, compassion isn’t something that is forced into existence.
So Vick’s probably not rehabable from a ‘will learn to play nice with others’ POV. The best we can hope for his keep him the heck away from anything and anyone helpless and watch him for relapse.
It will happen. Believe me, it will. He will never look at any amimal without feeling the need to do harm.
You see, that’s where we disagree. You buy into the Left Wing nonsense that a person who kills or tortures an Animal is automatically a Sociopath. I disagree from watching someone I grew up with first hand.
I had a friend I grew up with who was constantly torturing Animals. As boys, you never want to be looked at as “soft” by your friends, so I used to laugh at his antics, but it secretly disgusted me. I would never “rat him out” but part of me always felt like I should have.
As he grew into a young man, he emerged as one of the toughest guys I knew. When I went off to my nice, neat Ivy League education, he shunned College and decided to become a Fireman. He spent the next 17 years running into burning buildings to save people’s lives. Yeah, the same guy who used to get his rocks off pulling the arms and legs off of Animals to amuse himself. Eventually he moved from our Upstate NY town to NYC. Sadly, he’s no longer with us. He was one of the 343 of New York’s bravest of the brave who gave his life to try and rescue people in the World Trade Centers.
I’m not gonna humiliate his family and mention him by name, but for me, he is 100% proof that all the shrinks and social critics are dead wrong about the link between Animal cruelty and Sociopathic behavior.
A. I grew up with one and yes, he can’t be trusted around any animals. To this day, if a pet disappears, I’m pretty sure what happened.
B. My job entails working with and around these kids now. It’s sad and it’s scary. There may be exceptions, but it’s fact for most of these kids-— and we know better than to leave them alone with a fly, much less a larger animal.
C. I fostered for a while, and again, what I doubted became too too real. There are kids with damaged minds. Who don’t think or feel like others. Compassion can be taught to some, others, are totally blind to that emotion.
Don’t knee-jerk and assume that if it’s not in your world, it must be ‘liberal’ based. Sometimes folks just know something you don’t know, or have a set of experiences that you don’t have.
Your friend is an exception to the rule, which can happen, but is rare.
OR he’s gotten really good at hiding it now (Dexter maybe?)
Nothing is 100%, but the Trifecta of behaviors = Sociopath has been proven in the majority of instances. It’s not even up for discussion anymore.
Just as slavery was once legal in this country, right? Bad argument there.
So address the ENTIRE argument in the proper context. Come on, deal with the REAL argument I made rather than an introduction designed to place some context around the issue.
Najida,
I understand that you may have a lot of experience in this area and you may be right, but as people, we are defined by our experiences and this is MY experience with a person who abused animals as a child.
On a less serious note, I give you a TON of credit for being a “Dexter” fan. Most people here would sanctimoniously never admit to watching a show like that. Personally, I think it’s the best show on TV.
The judge game him 23 months because of his contempt for the legal process. He lied to the judge, failed drug tests, and wasn’t as cooperative as he promised to be.
I adore Dexter! And it is the best show in TV. I had a LOL moment when he dreamed of confessing to Deb about being the BHB.
BANG!
I do love the show.
Mostly because I see bits of those I know in Dexter....plus a lot of myself.
No, I’m not a serial killer...but I do understand the “what are the feeling” sense he has of being on the outside looking in, so I not only am I the employee of Modern Psych but I’m the owner ;)
As for your experiences, I’m glad they were positive. They are the people who give the Dr.s hope and make them keep trying, even with very rotten kids.
Again, mine and my siblings were negative, hence my previous post and my current state of being :)
Najida,
The scene where he’s confessing is awesome. I’m dying to see the final episode. I am running through all of these possible endings and I simply cannot see one that doesn’t include Dokes’ death. What do you think? Please tell me that there will be a Season 3!!!
Very encouraging that someone understands there is a middle ground between “Animal Rights Liberals” and animal torture supporters. Now if only you didn’t try to drag justice down to the lowest common denominator. Just because the Duke Lacrosse players were sickingly wrong is no reason you just turn the justice system off until that that wrong is righted. The world is certainly a better place with d!ckless wonders like Michael Vick off the streets - it’s a good thing, not something to whine about.
Yep,
there will be a Season 3 (all ready signe for etc)
and CBS is picking up Dexter,
though the joke is that after editing etc it’ll look like one of Dex’s victims.
And there’s one scenario that plays out that that will get rid of Lila/Elvira AND sadly, Doakes (But I really don’t know).
Why is Michael Vick being jailed for 23 months? Fine him, fine. Force him to do thousands hours of community service, sounds good to me. Unless the dogs belong to someone else, there’s no reason to put Vick in jail. Dogs are property, not human beings.
Najida,
Dexter on CBS is like watching Goodfellas on CBS...pointless.
I would bet money that Lila is going DOWN, but I hope Dokes continues...just can’t see any scenario where he lives unless he agrees to disappear to Haiti.
I’m thinking Dokes tells Lila about Dexter, and when Dexter gets back to the cabin, Lila has “taken care” of Doakes to prove that she and Dexter belong together...then Dexter “does” her...he then frames Lila for the murders.
Does that sound plausible?
Well not everything was better 50 years ago. If we are going to be technical about it, if Vick committed this crime 50 years ago, he would have been likely lynched by the KKK. And he wouldn't have had to worry about a professional football career because he wouldn't have had one in the first place.
go through user “MarkDel” posts. he makes basically the same point. and many take him to task. i believe thay are property, but a dog is different than a chair or a car, imho.
The greatest tragedy is that we are being denied Michael Vick’s entertaining us with his god-given moves.
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