Posted on 07/23/2007 6:42:58 AM PDT by GeorgiaDawg32
At this point I'm sure that I don't have to do to much to bring you up to speed on Michael Vick and his latest troubles. A federal grand jury has indicted Vick on charges related to dog fighting. That may be just the beginning. The State of Virginia has yet to be heard from, and as I understand it mere ownership of property on which dog fights are held is a felony under Virginia law. Just one felony conviction and Vick is through with professional football in this country.
Let's put this "innocent until proven guilty" nonsense to rest right here at the beginning. When you kill someone you are a killer. If you do so in violation of the law; if it is not in self defense, for instance, you are a murderer. A person who kills a girlfriend because she merely wants out of the relationship is a murderer as soon as his victim's heart stops beating .. you don't have to wait for a jury to come in with a verdict.
So, where does this "innocent until proven guilty" stuff come in? The presumption of innocence is, in my view, a limitation that is primarily place on government. Generally speaking, only government can use force – deadly force – to deprive you of your property, your liberty or your life. If the government is going to do so as punishment for the commission of a crime, then the government must afford you your constitutional rights and prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. It is the government, then, that must consider you to be innocent until otherwise proven. After the act, the rapist is only innocent in the eyes of government. The victim views him quite differently.
O.J. Simpson is a murderer. There is not one rational-thinking American familiar with knowledge of the facts of his case who honestly believes otherwise. A renegade jury failed to convict him however, so the government cannot punish him for his butchery. If O.J. objects to my characterization of him as a murderer he has civil remedies he can pursue. I, however, am powerless to punish him for the slaughter of his wife and Ron Goldman.
Now .. back to Vick. Personally, I have no doubt that he knew of and was a willing and eager participant in this blood "sport" of dog fighting. I'm an animal lover. I particularly love dogs. I would have no problem whatsoever seeing him serve some time in jail for his crime. I believe that people can be judged by how they treat animals. If what they allege about Michael Vick is true then he is completely lacking any sense of morality and human decency. Jail might be too good for him. Better to baste him in steak sauce and throw him into a cage full of the very dogs he so loved to brutalize.
What should the Falcons do with Vick? Totally their choice. They have a contract with this thug that would allow them to fire him on the spot. I'm not Arthur Blank and I have no idea what it would feel like to invest tens of millions of dollars in someone only to have them turn out to be such a miserable person and a complete embarrassment to the entire organization off-field. How do you explain to Vick's teammates that their season is about to be negatively affected because of these indictments? What do you say when they cry "He hasn't been convicted yet!" Perhaps if Blank and the Falcons had not invested so much time, effort and money into protecting Michael Vick from his own persona over the years things might not have come to this. But Vick was a jock .. a hero .. a prized gladiator. He generated massive amounts of revenue, not only for the team, but for the league ... and was thus entitled to treatment that would insulate him from his own repugnant actions.
If someone in a position of authority had smacked him down a few years ago, the team might not be going through this today.
As I said, the Falcons can do with Vick as they please. If he's convicted of a felony we should expect the NFL to follow the rules they've set and send him packing. We'll see. But I, as a fan, have my own choices to make, and my choice will be to have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Falcons as long as this thug is wearing their uniform. As long as Michael Vick is part of the organization, the organization, for me, ceases to exist. My wife is from Jacksonville, so I'm now officially a Jaguars fan.
Now ... let's address the race angle. I've been reading some of the blogs out there, and I did have a chance to listen to some sports talk radio over the weekend. What I've read and heard is entirely predictable. Everyone is out to get Michael Vick because he's black. The whole investigation is racially based.
This isn't about race. It's about culture. Black urban culture, to be more precise. The Humane Society of the United States estimates that organized dogfighting has increased by well over 300% since 1992. In many cases the dogfighting takes place in conjunction with drug dealing. The director of the Capital Area Humane Society in Ohio told the Cincinnati Inquirer ""Dogfighting is a family event, often held in a large warehouse. Children watch and there can be concession stands at one end, gambling somewhere else, and over in this corner they'll be selling cocaine and crack."
I'm sure it will come as no surprise to you that dogfighting has been glorified in rap music. DMX and Snoop Dog have promoted the practice in their "music" videos.
Eileen Lou-Harrist wrote "In recent years, pit bull terriers have become a macho accessory in urban culture, where kids are attracted to the animals' reputation as inherently mean dogs. Add the hard-edged glamour of the dogfight—the gambling, drugs and weapons; the illegality; the 'fight 'til you die' credo—and dogfighting flourishes in places where cultivating a tough reputation is often paramount to survival." Now is Lou-Harrist describing any sort of a racial characteristic with those words? Hardly. She's describing a culture; urban street culture. Gangsta culture. So for all of you out there who will try to make this whole Michael Vick affair into a racial issue, put a sock in it. We're talking culture here, not race; a violent, immoral and cruel culture that promotes violence and disrespect for common decency and the law; a culture now vividly represented by Michael Vick.
I'm told that if you visit animal rescue shelters in many urban areas you'll find that over 60% of the dogs there are pit bulls or some variation. Slam a few of these people in jail for some extended sentences and let's see how quickly that changes.
Wait until it is your ox being gored Mr. Boortz.
Boortz is EXACTLY right on this one.
The government and the courts MUST consider a suspect charged with a crime innocent until proven guilty, but there's not a DAMN THING that says we, as individual citizens, must do so.
I posted the first article on FR on the indictment. That was my first comment.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1867399/posts
If you folks really think that if a person’s constitutional rights to a fair trial are protected, the rest of us do not have the right to a free speech opinion as to whether the person committed the act or not, then you are on the wrong forum!!
He defines the concept of innocent until proven guilty quite nicely. It’s a constraint applied to government sanction, not common sense. In fact, he goes to quite some length to make his point. I’m surprised you could miss it.
Surely I could have found something better to do than to read something about Michael Vick written by Neal Boortz. What was I thinking?
If Vick gets to play I hope there is a Lawrence Taylor out there that can break his leg like Theisman’s. Or maybe his entire offensive line can just crumble and let the entire defense have a shot at him. May you rot in hell Michael Vick and all like you.
Good point- it's hard to believe that he never brought his football friends over to see his "hobby". We may yet see other indictments before this thing is over.
Go ahead and slander whoever you like — I won’t be paying your legal bills.
But when you hear the lefties accusing conservatives of unproven crimes...
Michael Reagan discussed the slime-ball yesterday. Mike believes that the race card is going to be played big-time with Vik apologists, white and black saying that the poor youth just was doing what is natural and a common part of growing up as a black man. I am sure that JJ and Al will be getting face time in the media soon explaining that more corporations need to be extorted to provide millions of dollars to help these poor black youths see the error of their ways.
I think this is what most 'law and order conservatives' really think of our system of justice.
Boortz isn't referring to the justice system here. He is saying that as a free, non-governmental citizen, he and all of us are free to make a non-binding judgement about his guilt. In other words, in the realm of pulbic opinion, people can and do make a decision as to an offender's guilt. It's human nature to do so and the government, or the justice system has nothing to do with that.
You can bet your last dollar the NFL is wondering the same thing, and doing what they can to bury it before it gets out. As for Vick, if there’s any way they can let their “prized gladiator” play, they will.
I hope the NFL suspends Vick indefinitely and soon. My Saints have to play them twice this year...:-)
They don't need to wait for a conviction to do that.
“I would have no problem whatsoever seeing him serve some time in jail for his crime.”
I would add “some SERIOUS time”. Poor puppies.
Boortz is right here, he didn’t go far enough in condemning this overpaid bum; but he badmouths all hunters so he speaks with forked tongue.
That is very scary, Neal. I totally disagree, strongly. Not only do I disagree, but that's the kind of thinking that gets picked up by the left-wing moonbats and they run smears with it.
So, basically, Neal believes that people like the Duke district attorney should be able to hang 'em first and then ask questions. Bad move Neal. By the way, how's that "teaching Republicans a lesson" thing working out?
ALRIGHT! You are the first person, other than myself, that I have seen tossing that thought out there. I think most are so hung up the cruelty aspects of the story, that the gambling implications are being overlooked...
I hope you’re right, but when 70% of DC voting age males are in jail, on probation, or under indictment, when 70+% of blacks believe the AIDS story mentioned above, when 70+% of blacks believe the crack story mentioned above, and when 70+% of blacks believe OJ is innocent, and when 90+% of blacks vote democrat, I have VERY little hope left for these people.
The NFL wants this to go away very badly. They don’t want players debating whether dogfighting is a bad thing.
You posted:
Let’s put this “innocent until proven guilty” nonsense to rest right here at the beginning.
I think this is what most ‘law and order conservatives’ really think of our system of justice.
Boortz isn’t referring to the justice system here. He is saying that as a free, non-governmental citizen, he and all of us are free to make a non-binding judgement about his guilt. In other words, in the realm of pulbic opinion, people can and do make a decision as to an offender’s guilt. It’s human nature to do so and the government, or the justice system has nothing to do with that.
***
I disagree. Boortz is describing the difference between the legal presumption of innocence, which I support and believe Boortz supports, and the reality of what may have occurred.
When a crime is committed, someone committed it, and he/she committed it at THAT time, not some later date when a jury determines that it was done (if the proof is provided). If no arrest or trial ever occurs, that does not change the fact that a crime was committed and that the perpetrator, IN FACT, committed it. The LEGAL determination that the perpetrator committed the crime is an entirely separate matter, and in order to protect the defendant’s rights, the LEGAL presumption is that the person charged is legally innocent until proven guilty.
Similarly, if an innocent person is convicted of a crime, that is only a LEGAL finding, not a change in reality. The true criminal still did it, despite a jury’s incorrect finding.
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