300 - FRANK MILLER'S STORY

[7thson]

I just watched a trailer of the new movie coming out - 300. It looks fairly decent. Anyone have anything to say about the movie? There are scenes where the talk about freedom and being free. I do not know the history of back then, but watching the trailer, I seemed to get a connection with what is going on in the world right now concerning the WOT and the storyline of the movie. They go against Persia - modern day Iran. 300 against one million - the United States against the world. Am I reading too much into this? Has anyone have any inside info concerning the movie and/or storyline?

[Sherman Logan]

My impression is that Islam always did, and still has, a master race mentality.

Except that their view has nothing to do with "race" or ethnicity or heredity. It's a sense of entitlement to rule that is based on religion . Anybody who wants to can join simply by converting.

This is very different from the Spartan or Nazi view of things, where you have to be born into the "master race." You can't join up.

From a purely practical standpoint, a "master group" you can join is likely to defeat one based on heredity. Getting lots of your potential opponents to join your side makes a lot of sense. The Romans were really good at this, a major reason they conquered and ruled more of the ancient world than anybody else.

[Jack Black]

I highly recommend the book "Civilization and its Enemies" by Lee Harris. He discusses the Spartans at length and draws some interesting conclusions.

[Sherman Logan]

So which group were the Spartans in?

[longtermmemmory]

Leonidas hand picked the 300 because they were all FATHERS.

The men all left sons behind who would carry on the blood line of the brave men.


For those who don't know this is where we get the phrase MOLON LABE. (come get them) This was when the persians demanded the spartans surrender and leave their weapons behind. The spartan replied by saying come get them.

There is much MISinformation about the ancients (having studied the real deal in Greece). So be wary of folks who are too quick to view the ancient world with revisionist history lenses.

[highball]

I have to remind them that it's Hollywood, not a history book.

Well put.

It isn't a documentary, it's fiction. Based on true events, but fiction nonetheless.

[longtermmemmory]

you mean the "liberty kids" from PBS are not real! say it ain't so!

(/s)

[7thson]

In an officially declared war, printing battles plans for Iraq, telling the public about going after bank transactions, and our eavesdropping on terrorists phone calls falls more under treason than Freedom of Speech. Going to Iraq and holding hands with a terroristic dictator is also treasonous.

[7thson]

MOLON LABE.

Would today's equivalent be "bring it on!"

[Jack Black]

His point was that the Spartan system, as overbearing as it was, was among the first that asked people to trade tribal identity for national identity, and imposed a universal set of requirements on its citizens. He sees this as a break through, and one that much of the Islamic world is still fighting. So he views the Spartans as an important early component of the creation of the philosphical underpinnings of civilization.

I am not doing his argumnets justice. It's been three years since I read the book and I don't have a copy handy to refresh my memory.

None the less I suspect you would enjoy it.

[Jack Black]

Really I think it's over the top to associate "master race" ideology with Sparta. Sure, Spartans fought their share of wars, as all the Greek city states did. But I've never heard of them setting out to genocide another race in total.

[montag813]

It is a Spartan warrior, with the inscription 'molon labe', or 'come and take them'.

I am 1/4 Spartan, I'll have to look into that.

[Wormwood]

No need to see a remake -- the orginal was just fine.

The 300 is definitely not a remake of that (admittedly fine) film.

[Wormwood]

The special effects look absurdly fake.

The effects could be better described as 'evocative' than 'fake'. Like Sin City, one of the design goals of this film is to capture a mythic reality, not a photographic one.

[brazzaville]

Good morning.
"The special effects look absurdly fake."

I got the impression that they were trying to transfer the comic to the screen, as they did with Sin City.

Michael Frazier

[Sherman Logan]

The Nazis did a lot of things besides genocide.

The specific Nazi practices I was thinking of with regard to the Spartans were state-controlled eugenics and enslavement of entire peoples for the enrichment of the master race.

While slavery in Greek societies was widespread, only Sparta enslaved entire cities and regions, then controlled them by declaring war on them each year so that they could be killed with religious impunity.

The Spartans also invented the idea of the "secret police" brought to its peak by the Gestapo. However, since this is a hallmark of all totalitarian states, there's nothing specifically Nazi about it.

[91B]

Outstanding.

[T. P. Pole]

I think one thing that is missing in this historical discussion is the east vs west idea.

The Persian army was between 100,000 and 1,000,000 strong (I guess record keeping wasn't the best back then). If not for the demoralizing impact the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae had on the Persians, they would have likely overtaken the Greeks, and western culture would likely have perished.

The Battle of Tours with Martel had the same impact. If not for that battle, the west would likely have been destroyed by the east. It decided that the Christians and not Muslims would be the ruling power in Europe. Would America even have been settled if the muslims won? If it had, would it have been as free as it is/was?

Who were the Persians? Today we would say Iran and the surrounding area. Who did Martel defeat? The Moors and Muslims.

Who are we fighting today?

I look at the US (and parts of Canada, the UK, Australia, and Poland) as the 300. Even within the US, only a small part of us acknowledge that this really is a battle between the east and the west and which culture will survive. Hopefully, we can hold off the enemy long enough for our side to get organized and ready to fight.

Molon Labe!!!

[95 Bravo]

Who are we fighting today?

"I look at the US (and parts of Canada, the UK, Australia, and Poland) as the 300. Even within the US, only a small part of us acknowledge that this really is a battle between the east and the west and which culture will survive. Hopefully, we can hold off the enemy long enough for our side to get organized and ready to fight.

Molon Labe!!!"

Mr.Nail, meet Mr.Hammer....

[SunkenCiv]

Somewhere one of the shields taken by the Athenians from a Spartan on the isle of Sphacteria, and so engraved. Had Athens been a multicameral democracy, instead of the mob-ocracy that it was, that battle might have ended the Peloponnesian War, and in any case, there wouldn't have been the expedition to Syracuse. Ah well, it worked out anyway, as Thebes destroyed what was left of the Spartan army at Leuctra. That monument remains (much reduced by earthquake and scavenging for building stone). Oh wait, it's a restoration. Still, some of it was still in situ. As you said, amazing.

http://www.sikyon.com/Thebes/leuctra_eg.html

[af_vet_rr]

DO NOT go see this movie, if you are looking for historical movie. You will be sorely disappointed. It is based on a graphic novel in a historical setting, not history.

With that said, Frank Miller does some great writing, and 300 is a very good read.

Having just seen the trailer last week, and a friend loaning me the graphic novel (one of the first I've ever read), I was very impressed.

I understand that historians and the anally-retentive are already bashing the movie, but it's a highly stylized movie about an event that happened well over 2000 years ago, an event that we don't exactly have a lot of source material about (owing to the nature of few survivors, classical historians relying on 2nd and 3rd-hand and 4th-hand information, etc.).

The movie looks great, and I was curious if they would downplay the Persians trying to conquer everything, but it appears they haven't.

For those who have no idea about the history of this event, it's one of the most fascinating periods of western history (and really a defining moment in the eventual creation of what we consider to be democracy).