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X-rated Tolkien: it's not for the kiddies
The Sunday Times ^ | September 24, 2006 | Maurice Chittenden

Posted on 09/24/2006 4:02:42 AM PDT by MadIvan

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To: JenB
Lord of the Rings is not based on Kalevala but some of the Silmarillion is.

OK, so that's where I had heard the connection previously. Sounds like "The Children of Hurin" is an expansion of the tale mentioned in "The Silmarillion", so that's where the connection to the "Kalevala" must be.

41 posted on 09/24/2006 12:56:18 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: SuziQ

A lot of Silmarillion has Kalevala influences but "Turin Turambar" is the most obvious. It's a very close retelling of one part of the Kalevala.


42 posted on 09/24/2006 12:59:00 PM PDT by JenB
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To: Old Student
Thank Heaven for halogen lamps!

We live in MA, and one year, our furnace for the downstairs went out in mid-January. We have a separate one for the bedrooms, upstairs, so that was good. It was a couple of weeks before the guy could get the part to fix it, so we relied heavily on our fireplace and I also baked a lot to help keep the heat up downstairs! We also kept the lights going a lot, and SirKit mentioned that was the most cheerful he'd ever felt during the winter since we'd moved here! LOL!

The dreariness is one of the main reasons we're looking forward to moving back to MS before this coming winter!!

43 posted on 09/24/2006 1:04:40 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: MadIvan

Shades of the tale of King Arthur...


44 posted on 09/24/2006 1:06:07 PM PDT by Harmless Teddy Bear (A propensity to hope and joy is real riches; one to fear and sorrow, real poverty)
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To: Drumbo

JRR Tolkien pingaroo


45 posted on 09/24/2006 1:10:07 PM PDT by Titan Magroyne (Suicide Bomb Instructor: "Now pay attention, I'm only gonna do this once...")
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To: MNJohnnie

Loved his Legacy of the Aldenata sequence. Likewise the Prince Roger stories, and his "Fall" books are pretty good, too. Wasn't too fond of Cally's War, though. I don't mind romance in my SF, but I'm not too fond of blatant descriptive sex. (yeah, I'm an old fogie.) I'll probably stay away from his Ghost books, too, for the same reason. He's an excellent writer, IMHO. He's got a couple of others out I've not gotten a look at yet, also. I did just read Princess of Wands. Still haven't made up my mind about it, but I finished it in one sitting, so that must say something...


46 posted on 09/24/2006 1:15:17 PM PDT by Old Student (We have a name for the people who think indiscriminate killing is fine. They're called "The Bad Guys)
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To: MadIvan

If that merits an "X" rating, so does Sophocles.


47 posted on 09/24/2006 1:42:44 PM PDT by lesser_satan (EKTHELTHIOR!!!)
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To: PzLdr
Read Unfinished Tales. It has some intersting background info on the Nazgul and other LOTR related things.
48 posted on 09/24/2006 1:46:00 PM PDT by lesser_satan (EKTHELTHIOR!!!)
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To: lesser_satan
I've read them, and they do have a lot of info, but most of it seems to deal with the period after they've become Wraiths. The Lord of the Nazgul was already a Wraith when he became Witch King of Angmar.

Aside from whether or not the Lieutenant of the Tower is named Morgoth or Kamul, the UT are almost as bare bones about the Nine as LOR [except for their riding to Orthanc]. I just think the Lord of the Nazgul would make an interesting subject. He was, apparently, a wizard of sufficient power to face Gandalf after breaking the gate of Minas Tirith, and a soldier of formidable skill. A pity we never learn more about him.

But then again, I'm one of the few people I know who believes Pippin, not Eowyn, killed the Black Captain on Pellanor Field,with the barrow sword inscribed with runes of power against the Witch King of Angmar.
49 posted on 09/24/2006 2:16:17 PM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: dljordan
I read a compilation of them not too long ago. Cheered me right up.

Yep. Just when you think your life is going badly, read deidre of the sorrows, and it puts everything in perspective. =^)

50 posted on 09/24/2006 4:23:01 PM PDT by Celtic Conservative ("Minutum Cantorum, Minutum Baloram, Minutum Carboratum Descendam Pantorum")
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To: MadIvan

Anyone who's read the Silmarillion is already familiar with this.


51 posted on 09/24/2006 5:45:45 PM PDT by StoneColdGOP (The Minutemen: Doing the Job Bush Won't Do.)
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To: JenB
It's an epic poem so finding a good translation is important.

I'm half Finnish, but have not read much of the Kalevala. I believe that Longfellow used the rhythm pattern of this poem for his 'Tales of Hiawatha' epic, which is a good way for non-Finns to get the feel of speaking Finnish.

This accidental incest plot of course goes back to the Greek myth of Oedipus Rex, who kills his father and marries his mother, all unknowingly, and in Wagner's Ring Sigemund commits accidental incest with Siegelinde, not knowing she is his sister. The Ring was based in part of the ancient tales of the Niebelungen, which itself is based on the history of the Germanic tribes at the time of the invasion by Attila the Hun. (since the Finns, like the Hungarian Magyars, are related to the Huns, this rather comes full circle.)

These themes are some of the most ancient and powerful themes in human culture. If you get to dwelling on them too much, you must move to the land of the Sun -- Florida.

52 posted on 09/24/2006 7:23:29 PM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: PzLdr
"But then again, I'm one of the few people I know who believes Pippin, not Eowyn, killed the Black Captain on Pellanor Field,with the barrow sword inscribed with runes of power against the Witch King of Angmar."

I had always thought the combination killed the Witch King--Pippin's dagger unloosed the spell that protected him, and Eowyn's sword thrust killed him.

It is logical that Pippin's dagger did the whole thing--except for the prophecy that he could not be killed by the hand of man.

Even with that you could reason that Pippin was not a man. But the sense of the prophecy being fulfilled by Eowyn is there in that passage.
53 posted on 09/24/2006 9:37:08 PM PDT by Forgiven_Sinner (Here's an experiment for God's existence: Ask Him to contact you.)
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To: Forgiven_Sinner; PzLdr

You guys have your hobbitses mixed up! Pippin wasn't even present at that part of the battle.

Merry stabbed the Witch King - and then Eowyn did the actual killing. I don't believe Merry delivered the killing blow, though certainly he helped.

And I still rather wish Eowyn's dialog there hadn't been changed for the movie, though it still works OK, I guess.


54 posted on 09/24/2006 9:46:20 PM PDT by RosieCotton
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To: PzLdr; Forgiven_Sinner

IIRC it was Merry who rode with Eowyn and helped her slay him, not Pippin. Gandalf had taken Pippin with him to Minas Tirith to keep him out of trouble after he looked in the Palantir and left Merry behind with Theoden.


55 posted on 09/24/2006 10:00:23 PM PDT by lesser_satan (EKTHELTHIOR!!!)
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To: lesser_satan

You're right. I keep mixing them up.


56 posted on 09/24/2006 10:18:34 PM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: Forgiven_Sinner

If you read the passage at the end of the chapter and parse it the way I did, Merry's thrust unbound the Witch King's spirit from the whatever held him together, all before Eowyn stabbed him. And Hobbits aren't men. Eowyn's weapon was an ordinary sword. So while she was a human female [but not a male], I can't see how she could kill the greatest sorceror of his age, and the greatest of the Nine [bearing in mind that none of the other other of the Nine fell to any agency but the dissolution of the Ring of Power, and the eruption of Mt. Doom].


57 posted on 09/24/2006 10:25:26 PM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: StoneColdGOP
Anyone who's read the Silmarillion is already familiar with this.

Yep. As well as Unfinished Tales (which are some of my more treasured books)

58 posted on 09/24/2006 10:34:29 PM PDT by Wormwood (Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter because nobody listens.)
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To: PzLdr

Here is some info on the Witch-King:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-king_of_Angmar


59 posted on 09/25/2006 10:30:53 PM PDT by Chewbacca (I reject your reality and substitute my own.)
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