Mortar and Katyusha Remedies??

8/9/05 | self

[tomzz]

Israel has been getting plastered for the last month by what amount to low-tech weapons, mainly katyusha rockets and mortar bombs. Those things are WWII vintage weaponry and it's not as if countermeasures did not exist. Granted we don't quite have the laser weapons we'd like to have to shoot those weapons down, we DO have radar which can triangulate the location of anything which obeys ballistic laws, including both mortar bombs and katyusha rockets, and put munitions down on top of the shooters before the incoming projectile even lands.

Here's the question: Why is Israel not using this sort of thing? If they don't have it, we need to see that they do ASAP, but what I fear might be the case is that they have it but are not using it for reasons of political correctness and because such weapons clearly do not act to minimize collateral damage amongst civilians who might be close to the shooters.

If that's the case, then somebody needs to read some sort of a riot act to Ohlmert and/or whoever's responsible for such a policy.

[A CA Guy]

True enough, should be far more gloves off IMO.

[timestax]

This is why

[ChadGore]

1) You're new to FR so I'de ask you to seek the help of the many many vets with military experience that can help.

[lepton]

I think that they can fire the anti-artillery weapons befoe the originals land, in ideal circumstances, but I don't think they can have them hit before the originals land.

[MikeA]

Here's the question: Why is Israel not using this sort of thing? If they don't have it, we need to see that they do ASAP,

They are using such technology. I've seen it mentioned in many different sources as being a tactic the Israelis are using. But the shooters employ shoot and scoot tactics so it's not always possible to get them. By the time the Israelis vector in coordinates to fire, they may well be gone. But they've taken out a good number of mortar and rocket batteries using this technology. It's just not a perfect solution, especially if the animals happen to locate their weapon right in the middle of a bunch of civilians.

[Enchante]

"radar which can triangulate the location of anything which obeys ballistic laws, including both mortar bombs and katyusha rockets, and put munitions down on top of the shooters before the incoming projectile even lands."

I have read that Israel definitely possesses this capability but isn't using it much because the evil Hezbo-Nazis almost always launch from very close to homes, schools, mosques, etc. so that every Israeli shell in response would cause collateral damage and provide the Hezi-Nazis with more propaganda for the weak-minded.

[Normal4me]

Because they shoot and move them. By the time IAF sees where they came from, they are hidden back in neighborhoods or groves. They need to light Lebanon on fire and fan the flames north.

[ChadGore]

2) What you're looking for is a Phalanx which the navy uses as a CIWS on our ships.

These are fantastic weapons for point defense where the outgoing fire of the gun falls harmlessly over the horizon (and you know that there is nothing over that horizon).

It's difficult to deploy them where your own outgoing fire can cause damage when the rounds fall (and they always fall).

[ASA Vet]

Katusha was developed by the Soviets as a massed fire weapon to target an entire grid square.

Those being used by the rags are being fired singly or just 3 or 4.
As soon as they fire they leave the simple launcher behind and leave the area.
If the rags start using the rockets in the MRL configuration they'll be worth counter-battery fire.

[fso301]

Here's the question: Why is Israel not using this sort of thing?

Why do you think they aren't?

A 155mm Howitzer projectile travels at roughly 800 meters/sec. Depending on the gun, projectile and charge, it can go a little faster or slower but lets stay with 800m/sec for purposes of this discussion.

The maximum range is roughly 40 kilometers. So, ignoring wind resistance slowing the projectile, an outbound 155mm round fired at a target 40 kilometers away will take about 50 seconds to get there.

Add to that crew response time, target acquisition time, target fixing time and communications and you're up over 1 minute.

The pickup truck that fired the rockets can be long gone in that amount of time.

[verbal voter]

During the Vietnam war the viet cong used something similar to attack "parked aircraft". Sperry developed and we deployed an automatic firing mortar and short range radar. The radar , set inside a circle of aircraft, automatically fired mortar shells, armed with a proximity fuse, at incoming rockets. It apparently worked. Just the ticket to kill katushas in rural N. Israel. To learn more, talk to air force officers old enough to remember.

[Redcloak]

The Hezbos usually aren't standing next to the launcher when the counter-battery fire comes in. Katyushas can be launched remotely or via a timer. The Hezbos will park the launcher next to a civilian target, set the timer, and scoot. The IDF hasn't been firing back every time because they don't want to fall into this trap. (And this, of course, explains the Hezbos and their Qana charade. If the IDF won't hit the civilian target, the Hezbos will hit it for them!)

[garbageseeker]

THEL

[muawiyah]

The IDF uses an enhanced artillery piece ~ it fires rocket assisted rounds. That gives the IDF sufficient range to take out the NorthEast side of Damascus any time they want (once they secure the access route from Lebanon, which probably happens tonight).

I suspect part of the IDF battlefield logic is to leave enough of Hezbollah's fighting force intact to bring out their WMD ~ then they get snuffed.

[kingu]

Here's the question: Why is Israel not using this sort of thing? If they don't have it, we need to see that they do ASAP, but what I fear might be the case is that they have it but are not using it for reasons of political correctness and because such weapons clearly do not act to minimize collateral damage amongst civilians who might be close to the shooters.

It's not political correctness, it's national consciousness. They don't want to randomly kill civilians, the terrorists do. So, while automated return systems exist, the Israeli weapon systems are able to handle them, and they've used counter batteries before, they've decided not to use it now because of the terrorists choosing housing blocks, city squares, etc for their launch locations.

It's the crime of human shields. And the MSM would rather condemn Israel.

[fso301]

The IDF uses an enhanced artillery piece ~ it fires rocket assisted rounds.

It's still a matter of speed and distance to target. The base bleed or, rocket assist projectiles can only travel so fast.

[muawiyah]

Still gives the rounds greater range than "ordinary" artillery rounds.

[randog]

True enough, should be far more gloves off IMO.

Yup. We rely too heavily on technology to make things better for us. We think we can do stupid things or be lazy and the "Great Air Bag of Life" will protect us.

[GAB-1955]

Israel has started putting missiles on its UAVs.