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Facts Suggests Floyd Landis Might Be Telling the Truth

Posted on 08/07/2006 10:47:51 PM PDT by AZRepublican

The controversy surrounding Floyd Landis is actually different then other controversies over illegal steroid use for one major reason: Both his blood and urine has been tested eight times (three blood tests) throughout the French de Tour. These other tests combined are more significant and telling then the single sample test found with an abnormal T/E ratio. As it stands, Landis' single positive test is just a distraction that sheds little light on the truth of any illegal drug activity on his part.

To get any benefit out of an anabolic agent it must be used over weeks, not hours or days. Prior urine or blood tests that failed to detect an abnormal T/E ratio shows he was under no doping regime prior to entering the tour or during. What is most important now is determining what the tests showed following his positive urine test. As I understand the rules, the athlete with the yellow jersey must submit to an a mandatory urine test after each stage, leading to valuable follow-up data in order to determine whether we can have any confidence in the single positive test.

The degree in the drop of the T/E ratio following the positive test would be the golden key. The time it takes for a T/E ratio to return to normal after one stops taking the hormone is not instant, and can take several months, depending on dosage amounts and length of time taken. If Landis' follow-up urine test showed normal ratio, or a ratio consistent with his very first urine test, then we can have no confidence in the single positive test being the result of a sudden intake of a anabolic agent on the eve of Stage 17.

My advice is to stop dwelling over the positive test and zero in on the post urine/blood tests to learn if indeed Landis is either a very foolish cheater, or in fact is telling the truth. Because there are eight known urine tests and three blood tests, puts the French anti-doping council and everyone involved in the chain-of-custody of Landis' urine samples in the hot seat to explain why suddenly one sample tests positive while all other before and after do not.

Somehow I get the feeling Floyd Landis is just a temporary sideshow to a far greater story that is yet to be uncovered.


TOPICS: Sports
KEYWORDS: bicycling; bike; bmc; cheater; cycling; floyd; floydlandis; france; french; landis; letour; paris; parisroubaix; phonak; tdf; tourdefrance
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To: gopwinsin04
I think someone probably slipped him something in those whiskeys. It's the only logical explanation

Please tell me you're not serious??? Anyone who follows this sport closely knows that blood doping and steroids are so widespread that it is safe to assume that almost everyone is doing it (really, that's no different from any other professional sport).

The French have nothing to gain from this. A French man was not in second and does not stand to gain from Landis being thrown out. The Tour itself has become a mockery to the point that the German network that broadcasts the event has threatened not to do so next year. The sport is in danger of losing its lucrative contracts. The French have busted their own athletes for doping.

Landis cheated. The test for synthetic testosterone is reliable. He's totally done. If you don't believe it, perhaps you should be out helping OJ find the real killer. No need to talk about the ratios. His blood had synthetic testosterone in it!!! He took it from an outside source!!! This is like OJ saying the glove was planted to implicate him.

By the way, the whiskey explanation just doesn't add up. Who was with him to verify that story? I don't believe that a world-class athlete in the middle of the biggest event in his professional life is out getting hammered the night before one of the toughest stages in the Tour.

Americans are not above cheating in sports or anything else. Why is it that some people have to make excuses for others even when theyt are caught red-handed? I fear that our entire culture has accepted cheating as part of sports and part of doing business. It's a sad commentary that all of these pro athletes are doing this. There is no honor left in sports at the professional level.

21 posted on 08/08/2006 9:37:26 AM PDT by dl5192
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To: Penny1

"Another thought I had was that his reaction to all of this was clearly someone who was completely unprepared to deal with the test result. Seems to me someone who is or has been doping would have already rehearsed or at least thought about how he would handle something like this if he were to get caught."

Very nice catch!!! Premeditation takes into account all phases of an operation, including contingencies for 'Murphy.'


22 posted on 08/08/2006 11:20:36 AM PDT by petro45acp (SUPPORT/BE YOUR LOCAL SHEEPDOG! ("On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs" by Dave Grossman))
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To: dl5192
Landis cheated. The test for synthetic testosterone is reliable. He's totally done. If you don't believe it, perhaps you should be out helping OJ find the real killer. No need to talk about the ratios. His blood had synthetic testosterone in it!!! He took it from an outside source!!! This is like OJ saying the glove was planted to implicate him.

I believe you'll be proven wrong, Messier Expert.
23 posted on 08/08/2006 11:21:20 AM PDT by yobid (Islam is a disease and its death is the cure - deus clypus meus)
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To: yobid
I believe you'll be proven wrong, Messier Expert.

Honestly, as an avid cyclist and fan of the sport, I hope I'm wrong on this. But Tyler Hamilton had the same type of reaction as Floyd. He has always proclaimed his innocence, but he has never proven the tests wrong. He was also a guy that people looked at and said "there's no way Tyler would do that." They were wrong.

24 posted on 08/08/2006 11:56:26 AM PDT by dl5192
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To: dl5192
As a cyclist and fan too, I think we need to let this work it's course. Hamilton's situation was far different and involved transfusions. Let's not convict him until he's had his chance. And to date, the synthetic thing is still a vicious rumor.

Hamilton's Vuelta samples were analysed by the lab in Lausanne, which determined that both A and B samples showed signs of a mixed red blood cell (RBC) population. This same lab analysed samples taken from Hamilton's former Phonak teammate Santiago Perez on October 5, a week after the Vuelta had finished. They too showed signs of a mixed red blood cell population, and Perez has been given a two year ban for blood doping by the Spanish Cycling Federation.
25 posted on 08/08/2006 12:26:28 PM PDT by yobid (Islam is a disease and its death is the cure - deus clypus meus)
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To: yobid

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/hamilton_decision


26 posted on 08/08/2006 12:28:54 PM PDT by yobid (Islam is a disease and its death is the cure - deus clypus meus)
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To: yobid
As a cyclist and fan too, I think we need to let this work it's course. Hamilton's situation was far different and involved transfusions. Let's not convict him until he's had his chance. And to date, the synthetic thing is still a vicious rumor.

In what way was Hamilton's situation different other than being a different kind of doping? Both had positive tests, both made ridiculous excuses to try and explain the positive tests, and both were guys that people thought would never dope. Actually, these cases in cycling tend to be pretty similar.

A spokesman for the UCI confirmed the synthetic testosterone. That is not a rumor at this point.

Look, I can appreciate people wanting to believe Landis is innocent. But all of the evidence is going against him on this. His performance was super-human in stage 17. He has never had that kind of breakout performance. Hell, Lance never had that kind of breakout performance. It's hard to overstate the difficulty of what he did. When the doping controls come back positive (especially given all of the recent events with Operation Puerto, the positive doping tests for former teammates such as Hamilton and Heras, and the horrible reputation that Phonak has for doping), it's difficult not to believe he was doping.

27 posted on 08/08/2006 2:47:27 PM PDT by dl5192
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To: dl5192
What about the other tests? Did they show synthetic testosterone? They would have to as well because it wouldn't suddenly appear and then disappear again. And if it did, it would have done him zero good.

It certainly seems that the samples from that day had been contaminated. Otherwise he would have been found out before.
28 posted on 08/08/2006 3:02:20 PM PDT by Mr. Blonde (You know, Happy Time Harry, just being around you kinda makes me want to die.)
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To: dl5192
"with the horrible reputation that Phonak has for doping), it's difficult not to believe he was doping."

Why blame the team? If he was doping on this one occasion (it never showed up on any other test during the Tour), wouldn't he have to be doing it on his own? If the team is implicated, why did Phonak fire him and no one else? So I don't think what happened at Phonak in the past has any bearing on Landis. And can a tiny amount of synthetic testosterone account for Landis's performance that day? Keep in mind, his TOTAL testosterone level - measured within minutes of the race - was in the normal range.

As for the tremendous difference between landis's performance on the two days, anyone who has ever participated in any endurance sport knows that the body - for no obvious reason - can vary tremendously in the amount of energy from day to day. Some days you are totally flat even though you're rested, other times you can go and go even though you've had tough workouts the three previous days. Despite all the science, sometimes the body just won't do what you want it to do.

So I think it's far from true that "all the evidence" is against Landis.
29 posted on 08/08/2006 3:39:57 PM PDT by Steve_Seattle
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To: AZRepublican

When I first heard the news about the second postive test - I thougt "I don't feel sorry for this guy"

After reading his comments in the news today...I'm thinking he may be innocent afterall. Especially considering how awful the french treated Armstrong for years.

They just cannot stand an American champion.


30 posted on 08/08/2006 3:49:47 PM PDT by Scotswife
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To: Gay State Conservative
There wouldn't be nothing to discuss if it can be shown that a) the blood/urine really belongs to Landis; b) Landis sample was not spiked and post follow up tests prove residue amounts of "synthetic testosterone". If on the other hand, if it is just one single positive test standing out of 12 (8 urine and 3 blood) then we can have more confidence that the result of the positive is doctored.
31 posted on 08/08/2006 4:16:38 PM PDT by AZRepublican ("The degree in which a measure is necessary can never be a test of the legal right to adopt it.")
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To: AZRepublican

YIKES!! 8 + 3 = 11 and not 12 above!


32 posted on 08/08/2006 4:19:22 PM PDT by AZRepublican ("The degree in which a measure is necessary can never be a test of the legal right to adopt it.")
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To: dl5192
A testosterone patch placed on your scrotum might help you recover, might that is, but in no way would it give you "super human performance". That only comes from your guts and will to overcome the pain it take to win like that.

Don't diminish his performance with your silly assertions.

Time will show the lack of controls in the chain of command in the lab handling the samples including the "leak before the leak" BS from the lab and UCI. That alone stinks of incompetence.
33 posted on 08/09/2006 6:27:42 AM PDT by yobid (Islam is a disease and its death is the cure - deus clypus meus)
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To: yobid
A testosterone patch placed on your scrotum might help you recover, might that is, but in no way would it give you "super human performance". That only comes from your guts and will to overcome the pain it take to win like that.

Don't diminish his performance with your silly assertions.

Time will show the lack of controls in the chain of command in the lab handling the samples including the "leak before the leak" BS from the lab and UCI. That alone stinks of incompetence.

Go ahead and be naive. I never said that the patch was the only doping that Landis did. I merely explained what the procedure is for that particular process. My assertion is that he was on a systematic doping regime...just like all of the other top riders in the sport...(several of whom were former teammates such as Hamilton and Heras).

He failed a doping test!!! I watched him on the Tonight Show last night and although I give him high marks for courage, he didn't even come close to having a rational explanation for having synthetic testosterone in his urine. He got caught red handed so now he's going to blame the lab and the test. What a joke. He and the other riders seem to have no problem with the system until they get caught...then the whole thing is corrupt. I want him to be innocent because, frankly, I like the guy. But I'm afraid he's guilty. The evidence is overwhelmingly against him and he will NOT win this fight.

If you care to make a little wager on it, I'd be happy to.

34 posted on 08/09/2006 6:55:22 AM PDT by dl5192
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To: dl5192
Give us some info and stats on how an elevated T/e ratio and or short term (one application) synth testosterone helps an athlete win a race.

Please cite some examples of athletes who have been caught doing this short term for performance gain.

Please provide some links with credible citations.
35 posted on 08/09/2006 7:05:05 AM PDT by yobid (Islam is a disease and its death is the cure - deus clypus meus)
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To: Mr. Blonde
What about the other tests? Did they show synthetic testosterone? They would have to as well because it wouldn't suddenly appear and then disappear again. And if it did, it would have done him zero good.

It certainly seems that the samples from that day had been contaminated. Otherwise he would have been found out before.

They don't test for synthetic testosterone UNLESS the T/E ratio test shows that something is amiss. The situation would go something like this:

Rider X is on a doping schedule that includes testosterone, EPO, and other banned substances. The schedule includes masking agents that will allow the rider to test negative in any doping controls.

Rider X has a terrible ride in an alpine stage of a major stage race. Now seemingly out of contention, his team doctor gives him a new elixir that he says will help him recover. He also tells him that there is a masking agent to ensure a negative test.

Rider X takes the potion, wins the stage, and rises to win the overall race against what seemed like insurmountable odds! Except there is a problem...the masking agent didn't work correctly and Rider X has a T/E ratio that is off. The race officials decide to test the rider's sample further in order to confirm if there is an issue. After running a carbon to using EPO. He was banned for two years and just came back.

36 posted on 08/09/2006 7:08:45 AM PDT by dl5192
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To: Steve_Seattle
Why blame the team? If he was doping on this one occasion (it never showed up on any other test during the Tour), wouldn't he have to be doing it on his own? If the team is implicated, why did Phonak fire him and no one else? So I don't think what happened at Phonak in the past has any bearing on Landis.

Phonak has a terrible reputation. They have fired their management in the past and many team members. Doping in sports is systematic...it's not done by just a few rogues. You may want to read this:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2006/phonak_legacy

37 posted on 08/09/2006 7:11:10 AM PDT by dl5192
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To: yobid
Give us some info and stats on how an elevated T/e ratio and or short term (one application) synth testosterone helps an athlete win a race.

Please cite some examples of athletes who have been caught doing this short term for performance gain.

Please provide some links with credible citations.

Yobid, you're a fool. Nobody who knows anything about doping thinks he did it ONE time. But since you asked, here is a quote from Matt DeCanio...a one time pro cyclist who has been extremely outspoken about doping in the sport.

"I took testosterone. See, it is easy to say. When I took it, I went really fast. I mean really fast. I took a patch and you could leave it on and take it off whenever you wanted. The day I took it I would average 3-4 miles an hour faster and I could do Vo2 intervals at the end of a 100 miles. Then I would return home and look out my window after 5-6 hours on the bike and I would want to go climb Mt. Lemmon. But instead I would go party all night. The next day after the patch wore off my testicles had shrunken so small that they went up inside my body. I hated that feeling as I rode and I had to try to pull them out. I had veins in my legs everywhere and my muscles were bigger. Yes you get a better effect with time but there is an immediate effect that takes place."-Matt DeCanio

Now, why don't you provide some evidence in Floyd's favor other than "the French hate Americans" or some similar O.J. defense??? This is like debating a child.

38 posted on 08/09/2006 7:18:47 AM PDT by dl5192
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To: dl5192
You provided one quote from a doper as proof? Surely you can find some scientific stuff out there. C'mon you can do better than that.

And I believe he is being accused of testing positive for high T/e ratio once out of how many times, Dr. dl5192?

Oh, that's right he masked the rest of the tests. Yeah, right. Train for ten years, get tested a thousand times and decide to pop some detectable substance in the most important race of your life with your career at stake. Sure.

And you're 100% right, children resort to name calling.
39 posted on 08/09/2006 7:39:22 AM PDT by yobid (Islam is a disease and its death is the cure - deus clypus meus)
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To: yobid
You know nothing about this at all. I suggest you go do some of your own research. If you want to believe the guy, go ahead. But let's be clear that you know nothing about doping or the sport. You're like a little child who puts his hands over his ears because he doesn't want to hear something.

Ulrich, Basso, et al have never tested positive either. But it looks pretty clear cut that they're dopers. Ulrich could easily take a DNA test to prove his innocence, but he won't do it. Why do you think that is? He's never tested positive, mind you.

Heras tested positive ONE time on the second to last stage of the Vuelta when he already had it in the bag...do you think that was the only time he did it??? With everything to lose and nothing to gain??? That was just the time he got caught.

You're demonstrating your lack of knowledge every time you open your mouth.

So tell me again, what is the explanation for Landis??? Oh yeah, the world hates Americans. Or maybe it was his twin who died in his mother's womb (the Tyler Hamilton defense). Or it was the Jack and Cokes? No, that's not it...some Frog slipped him a Mickey the night before and he just happened to blow everyone away unlike anything that's EVER been seen before in the Tour!!! Hey, Yobid...if the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit.

40 posted on 08/09/2006 7:52:55 AM PDT by dl5192
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