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1 posted on 07/23/2006 9:36:42 AM PDT by tomzz
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To: tomzz

I probably should have noted that the powerpoint presentation which the link involving the Haldane Dilemma points to was for a little presentation I gave at the McLean Bible Church in Virginia on the topic about a couple of months ago.


2 posted on 07/23/2006 9:39:53 AM PDT by tomzz
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To: tomzz

Ping for later.


3 posted on 07/23/2006 9:40:22 AM PDT by My2Cents (A pirate's life for me.)
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To: tomzz

I've found this to be a fascination subject. Chuck Missler did a study on it that I still have on tape and bring out every now and then. It's still over my head, but it's fascinating.


4 posted on 07/23/2006 9:43:46 AM PDT by Not A Snowbird (Official RKBA Landscaper and Arborist, Duchess of Green Leafy Things)
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To: tomzz

Read later


8 posted on 07/23/2006 9:54:35 AM PDT by Fiddlstix (Warning! This Is A Subliminal Tagline! Read it at your own risk!(Presented by TagLines R US))
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To: tomzz
Utter nonsense ===> Placemarker <===
9 posted on 07/23/2006 9:57:27 AM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: tomzz
"The basic answer to that question is known as the Haldane Dilemma, after the famous mathematician and population geneticist J.B.S. Haldane who published his work in the mid 1950s. The basic answer is that you would need trillions and quadrillions of years, and not just the tens of millions commonly supposed. "

It takes all of two minutes to google up how the Haldane Dilemma is invalid .

“Haldane's "cost of natural selection" stemmed from an invalid simplifying assumption in his calculations. He divided by a fitness constant in a way that invalidated his assumption of constant population size, and his cost of selection is an artifact of the changed population size. He also assumed that two mutations would take twice as long to reach fixation as one, but because of sexual recombination, the two can be selected simultaneously and both reach fixation sooner. With corrected calculations, the cost disappears (Wallace 1991; Williams n.d.).

Haldane's paper was published in 1957, and Haldane himself said, "I am quite aware that my conclusions will probably need drastic revision" (Haldane 1957, 523). It is irresponsible not to consider the revision that has occurred in the forty years since his paper was published.

More in-depth analysis of the Haldane Dilemma here .

I think a reasonable person can be a believer in creation or ID, and I have absolutely nothing against them. But there’s something seriously wrong with someone who goes out of their way to misrepresent evolution.

10 posted on 07/23/2006 10:00:24 AM PDT by elfman2 (An army of amateurs doing the media's job.)
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To: tomzz

Ignorance is bliss placemarker.

How have you been Ted?


11 posted on 07/23/2006 10:04:49 AM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: tomzz

I dunno. You come here to get news about the Israel/Lebanon war, and all you find is newbies posting crevo threads, eh?

And as vanities, to boot.


12 posted on 07/23/2006 10:11:49 AM PDT by MineralMan (non-evangelical atheist)
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To: tomzz

Haldane Dilemma: Not actually a dilemma placemarker


15 posted on 07/23/2006 10:18:49 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (A brute kills for pleasure. A fool kills from hate - Robert A Heinlein)
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To: tomzz
Evolution is more of a logical than a scientific problem.

One can be a believer and not deny evolution.

One who is an atheist or agnostic must by necessity believe in evolution. If intelligent design or some other matter suggesting God action is proved then ipso facto they are wrong.

A agree with Coulter what people miss in this discussion is not the religion of the intelligent design believers but the religion of the Darwinists. The reason even a tepid, incomplete discussion of intelligent design cannot occur in the public schools--is the Darwinist religion cannot permit what to them is a heresy. Claiming no faith in God does not make one more objective or "scientific." Such claims themselves are leaps to faith just like any ohter religion.

16 posted on 07/23/2006 10:19:01 AM PDT by shrinkermd
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To: DaveLoneRanger

fyi


24 posted on 07/23/2006 10:32:47 AM PDT by tomzz
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To: tomzz

Sorry, but actual scientific data trumps simplistic calculations based off of arbitrary parameters and inaccurate models.


26 posted on 07/23/2006 10:34:39 AM PDT by Sofa King (A wise man uses compromise as an alternative to defeat. A fool uses it as an alternative to victory.)
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To: tomzz

"That meat clearly is not 70 million years old; I've seen week-old roadkill which looked worse. "

Really ?
Just how old do you think it "clearly" is ?

a week ? a decade ? a thousand years ?


35 posted on 07/23/2006 10:53:36 AM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: MadLibDisease

mark for later


37 posted on 07/23/2006 10:56:58 AM PDT by MadLibDisease ("Women and cats will do as they please and men and dogs should relax and get used to it" R .Heinlein)
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To: tomzz

Wow! Did you come up with this theory all by yourself?


41 posted on 07/23/2006 11:09:33 AM PDT by Jeff Gordon (Is tractus pro pensio.)
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To: tomzz
The pictograph at Agawa Rock at Lake Ontario shows the sawblade back fairly clearly . . .

Interesting observation, but the pictograph in question is actually found along the north shore of Lake Superior, not Lake Ontario. The Ojibway natives of that area attributed the harsh, unpredictable weather on the lake they called "Gitchee-Gumee" to the great spirit Mishipizhiw (the dinosaur-like figure in the pictograph).

46 posted on 07/23/2006 11:31:31 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: tomzz; AnnaZ; incindiary; knarf; CounterCounterCulture; Alamo-Girl

outstanding find!!


47 posted on 07/23/2006 11:32:09 AM PDT by RaceBannon (Innocent until proven guilty: The Pendleton 8)
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To: tomzz
Imagine a population of 100,000 apes or “proto-humans” ten million years ago which are all genetically alike other than for two with a “beneficial mutation”. Imagine also that this population has the human or proto-human generation cycle time of roughly 20 years.

Imagine that the beneficial mutation in question is so good, that all 99,998 other die out immediately (from jealousy), and that the pair with the beneficial mutation has 100,000 kids and thus replenishes the herd.

Why does he hypothetically eliminate the rest of the herd? There is no logic to it. Any number of the other 999,998 could be the evolutionary spark - take that quantum leap so to speak - that speeds up the whole process.

This proves nothing, really.

49 posted on 07/23/2006 11:40:03 AM PDT by raybbr (You think it's bad now - wait till the anchor babies start to vote.)
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To: tomzz

bump for later


53 posted on 07/23/2006 11:44:07 AM PDT by sawmill trash (You declare jihad ... we declare DEGUELLO !)
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To: tomzz

Evolution-deniers: They fear what they do not understand.


58 posted on 07/23/2006 12:05:51 PM PDT by thomaswest (Just curious)
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