All on benefits as the Brits call welfare.
Posted on 07/22/2006 10:43:33 PM PDT by numapompilius
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/
I would be interested to know what translation you're using.
To wit: "Do not take Christians and Jews as friends, for they are friends only with each other." 5:51
I understood that this was revealed at a time when the fledgling Muslim community was being attacked by the pagan leaders of Mecca and their Jewish and Christian allies. In any case, two later verses clairify 5:51:
[60.8] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice. [60.9] Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.
For the rest of you, its just a lovely peaceful faith that is practiced by nice people who wish us the best and don't persecute members of other faiths and other minorities in their home countries.
Certainly not in all of "their home countries" are non-Muslims persectued. The United States, for example, is the "home country" of most American Muslims. Non-Muslims aren't persecuted there. But in many foreign countries (Saudi Arabia being the most damning example) that is often the case. Of course, most Muslims who leave countries like Iran, Egypt, etc to come to America do so because they don't want to live in those countries because of the inhumanity practiced there. And they come here because it's a good place where people treat each other equally and honestly (for the most part) and don't discriminate against people or expel them from the country because of their religious faith.
Well said. I wouldn't doubt that the Nuke Mecca crowd wants to provide ammo to our enemy, because more terrorist strikes by people claiming to be Muslims will make it easier for the to convince the rest of the country to go to war with Muslims as a whole and, well, Nuke Mecca.
It's irrelevant weather they 'want to" or not. They are.
Oh, I don;t think they're doing it on purpose. I just think they don't really understand the this war, they tend to view the world as black & white. Now there is black & white in the world, but there are also shades of gray. Something else I've noticed is that many of them are very negative on our winning this war...inspite of any evidence to the contrary. And they of course you have those who are just, well...bigots.
"Again, nothing about Jews and Christians being apes and swine. It does say that those who acted wickedly were "(as) apes, despised and hated"."
All of those Suras were abrogated by the later Sura 9.
You do know that the "wicked" actions in question were the resistance of Mohammad's conquest of Medina, right?
"This seems to be exhorting Jews and Christians to accept God's word revealed to Muhammad. It compares Satanists to apes and swine. Would you say that Jews and Christians are the same as Satanists?"
Anyone who resists Mad Mo is consigned to hell... Missed that part?
"It does say that those who acted wickedly were "(as) apes, despised and hated"."
All that was required to "act wickedly" was to resist Mohammad.
Shall I quote Sura 9?
"Well said. I wouldn't doubt that the Nuke Mecca crowd wants to provide ammo to our enemy, because more terrorist strikes by people claiming to be Muslims will make it easier for the to convince the rest of the country to go to war with Muslims as a whole and, well, Nuke Mecca."
The problem you have is that the terrorists ARE Muslims and can point to Suras and Hadiths that justify them. That's why terrorism and jihad gain such traction in the Muslim world.
A dubious argument, to say the least. If they were abrogated, why are they in the Qur'an? And why abrogated by Surah 9, the historical context of which being escalating hostilities between the Muslims of Medina and the Byzantine Empire and its allies on the edge of the Arabian desert. It's also the only Surah that does not invoke the name of God at its opening.
You do know that the "wicked" actions in question were the resistance of Mohammad's conquest of Medina, right?
I was not aware that Muhammad conquered Medina.
Anyone who resists Mad Mo is consigned to hell... Missed that part? [...] All that was required to "act wickedly" was to resist Mohammad.
This in not unique among eschatological faiths: the faithful go to Heaven, the nonbelievers go to Hell. In Christian eschatology, where do you find the people who resisted and denied Christ?
But this is apart from the question at hand. You wrote (#130) that "the teachings of the Koran [...] define non-Muslims as subhuman. To be specific - apes and pigs. That's how they refer to the Infidel." I asked you (#133) to provide the offending passages from the Qur'an. In your response (#137) you named 2:62-65, 5:59-60, and 7:166. As shown above, those passages do not define non-Muslims as "subhuman" or as "apes and pigs". If, to quote you, "All of those Suras were abrogated by the later Sura 9", then why did you cite them in the first place?
I find it troubling that you say you have read "Muslim sources" closely, but the Surahs you have quoted clearly do not say what you claim they say.
Germans : Nazis Arabs, Persians, Indians (Pakistan, and the odd other ethnic groups (such as American converts): Islam
You were using "Muslim" as an ethnic group, not I.
Please show how I was using "Muslim" to refer to an ethnic group.
Your earlier compared the German/Nazi relationship to the Muslim/Islam relationship, saying: "It's not that Muslims are evil, it's Islam that is. Just as Germans weren't evil, but Nazism was." (#130, emphasis added to make your own point clear to you) There is a 1:1 correspondence between followers of Islam and Muslims. There is not a 1:1 correspondence between followers of Nazism and Germans. You can't compare the two. But you did. And you were wrong. Don't try to somehow put the stigma of this mistake on me.
There are more Christians than Muslims, but I don't hear of Lutheran terrorists blowing anyone up.
I'll defer to Valin on the Lutheran question, although my few years in Minnesota saw some suspicious hotdish and more than a few undercooked bars. ;)
But Peisistratus, you're not saying that there are no Christian terrorists are you? I mean, the LRA in Uganda is notorious for torturing and murdering civilians. The IRA is not an explicitly religious group, but its goals are closely tied to Catholic Republicanism in Ireland. And of course, Orange Order makes no excuses for its pogroms meant to keep Ulster Protestant. You brought up the Spanish Civil War. Didn't Franco claim to fight the Republicans (and civilians who sympathized with the Spanish Republic) in order to "keep Spain Christian"? And then there's the uncomforatble fact that while not all evangelical Protestants are abortion clinic bombers, all abortion clinic bombers are evangelical Protestants.
Not all religions are the same or teach the same things. Just ask those sacrificed to their god by the Aztecs.
Well that's ridiculous. They're dead. But does anyone follow the Aztec religion anymore? Not really, and if you think central Mexico's conversion to Christianity was all peacable and volutary, well, I've got a pyramid in Tenochtitlan to sell you...
This has never been a "War on Terror". We are not engaged with Shining Path or other non-Muslim terrorist groups. Only Muslim ones.
Do you think before you post? Of course we're engaged with non-Muslim terrorist groups. American donations to the IRA have been reduced to a trickle, thanks to tougher laws against financing terror groups. The ETA has stopped its terror attacks against targets in Spain and France. Separatist groups around the world know that America is fighting against them. Of course, we have our priorities and al-Qa'ida is tops among them for having killed 3,000 Americans on September 11 and thousands more over the years. It's the Islamist terror groups that are fighting us most directly and fiercely, but they are not the only ones. And to stop them, we have to crack down on all terror. That means cleaning up the mob-run ports and shutting down drug trafficking routes -- both of which could be used by bin Ladin if he can meet the price of a few crooked mobsters or narcotraficantes.
One only has too look to the calls for Sharia law in Canada and the demands for autonomy in many countries in Europe to see what happens when Muslim immigrants believe they have enough people to wield political power.
And calling for the expulsion of America's Muslim citizens will is basically asking hundreds and thousands of Americans to become terrorists. If you're going to treat them like criminals anyway, why should they follow the laws? The argument to shred the Constitution and attack own fellow citizens plays right into bin Ladin's hands.
That is a problem. Non-terrorists can (and do) point to the Qur'an, the Sunna and the Hadith that denounce terrorism.
Because the post-Roman Gothic kingdoms of Spain and North Africa represented the pinnacle of human scientific endeavors and the philosophers of al-Andalus were cave-dwelling barbarians.
I don't think you'll ever respect Islam as a religion. And to be honest, I don't care. It's when you start talking about disrepecting Islam and Muslims as being more important the the rule of law and the Constitution, that troubles me. It's not illegal to be a bigot. It is illegal when your bigotry drives you to break the law.
"A dubious argument, to say the least."
No, an argument consistent with Muslim teachings.
"I was not aware that Muhammad conquered Medina."
Well, the Jews he "ethnically cleansed" from the area wouldn't agree.
"As shown above, those passages do not define non-Muslims as "subhuman" or as "apes and pigs""
Yes, they do. The wicked ARE the Christians and Jews. It's certainly what the "imams" teach: http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sr&ID=SR01102
"Non-terrorists can (and do) point to the Qur'an, the Sunna and the Hadith that denounce terrorism."
Ah, but it is they who forget or ignore how the Koran is taught. Sura 9 abrogates the "peaceful" verses. Let's not forget the influence of the Hadiths.
Listen, zimdog, you may choose to continue to see Islam as just another peaceful faith, despite the evidence around the world. It's obvious you will not be convinced otherwise.
All on benefits as the Brits call welfare.
"I don't think you'll ever respect Islam as a religion."
If it deserved it, I would.
"It's when you start talking about disrepecting Islam and Muslims as being more important the the rule of law and the Constitution, that troubles me."
We banned the German American Bund. We can do this. Organizations like CAIR intend to use our laws to defeat us. You appear to applaud that.
"It's not illegal to be a bigot. It is illegal when your bigotry drives you to break the law."
It's human nature to be "bigotted" against those who say they wish to kill me and mine. Islam shows us what it is every day. You choose to ignore this. I see what is beginning in Europe and I manifestly don't want it here.
It makes more sense, but it's still a faulty analogy.
No "Christian terrorist" can point to a verse in the NT that justifies their actions. There is no forward-looking "make war on the infidel" verse there.
Indeed. Nothing justfies terrorism. What has driven Christian terrorists over the ages is the idea that the message of the NT -- that Christ sacrificed himself for the sins of the world and those who believe in Him are saved from (John 14:6)-- is an exclusionary one. Namely, those who ignore or reject Christ are damned to eternal hellfire and therefore unworthy of life on earth, should their lives conflict with Christians' lives. It underpinned Europe's long history of anti-Semitism and sectarian divisions within Christiandom, as well as the more direct military expansion of the community of believers in Europe as well as the conquest of the Americas. I don't read the NT as a "make war on the infidel" tract, but others have. And some continue to do so today. Is this right? No. Is this excusable? No. Is this justifiable? No. Does it happen? Yeah, it does. And it shouldn't.
No, we aren't. Show me where? Where do we have troops on the ground or air-strikes against non-Muslim terrorists?
Like Colombia?
Only the Muslim ones, son.
1) Don't call me "son". You haven't earned the right.
2) I'm sure the IRA, ETA, FARC, KKK, etc will be surprised to learn that they are Muslim terrorist groups.
So, you basically admit that the there is very little standing between them and mass murder, right? That their being "civilized" is only a thin veneer. Interesting.
What I'm saying is that you and bin Ladin are both trying to turn American security policy into a confrontation between Muslims and non-Muslims. When you say "Islam sucks, all Muslims are terrorists" strip a few million people of their citizenship and expel them from the country in an egregious violation of everything this country stands for, where will they go? Islamist terrorist groups will be all too happy to turn these Americans against the country that stripped them of their citizenship. Certainly you can't expect to summarily expel all American Muslims on the grounds that they're treacherous terrorists and expect them to remain loyal Americans. Al-Qa'ida certainly wouldn't. Since our biggest enemies are Islamist terrorist groups, why would you want to give them an opportunity to recruit among several million people just betrayed by your policy?
"Americans" like those at CAIR? "Americans" who protest with signs that show the black flag of Islam over the White House? Americans like Johnny Jihadist who went off to fight for the Taliban? Uh, huh.
As if actions like these are somehow limited to Muslims. How many Muslims are in the Klan? Anyone who works to undermine the United States and/or aid its enemies is a criminal. What this thread proposes is expelling all Muslims from the United States of America. Don't you think there's something wrong when the hardworking and friendly Albanian-American guy from the pizzeria down the street gets kicked out of the country of his birth while a rabidly anti-American "Christian Identity" nutcase stays here and rants about how the Jews and the Blacks are ruinin' America, the true home of the noble white race? Please.
You obviously have far too much PC in your veins.
Because I follow the law and expect others to do the same and expect the government to punish those who break the law and protect those who don't?
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