Posted on 06/14/2006 5:58:12 PM PDT by Oshkalaboomboom
Confederate flags flown aboard the international space station — and seemingly signed by a NASA astronaut — showed up last week on the online auction site eBay.
The original eBay listing indicated that the 4-by-6-inch flags were brought aboard the space station by Russian cosmonaut Salizhan Sharipov in 2004, and an accompanying photo showed a sample flag that seemed to bear Sharipov’s signature as well as that of Leroy Chiao, his NASA colleague on the station. Yet another photo showed several of the rebel flags floating in a space station module.
The item was pulled from the auction on Monday by the seller, Alex Panchenko of USSR-Russian Air-Space Collectibles Inc. in Los Angeles — and on Tuesday, Panchenko told MSNBC.com that he removed the items from sale because he had concluded the flag and the authentication documents were forgeries.
However, Robert Pearlman, editor and founder of CollectSpace, said he believes the flags are authentic.
“The picture taken of the flags aboard the station says a lot,” he said. “It would be difficult to fake, given the style and I couldn't see the motivation to do so.” The “onboard-the-ISS” stamp, added Pearlman, is not known to have been counterfeited anywhere."
The disappearance of the flags followed a round of criticism over the weekend from former space scientist Keith Cowing, publisher of NASA Watch, an independent Web log. He cited the Confederate flags as an example of “bad judgment on the ISS.”
“You'd think that someone on the U.S. side of the ISS program would have expressed some concern about flying a symbol on the ISS that many Americans associate with slavery,” Cowing wrote.
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
I don't question that Booth had contacts with Confederate agents in Canada, or that there was discussion about the possible kidnapping of Mr. Lincoln (similar to the Union's efforts to kidnap Davis via Ulrich Dalgren). But we're talking about Judah Benjamin's involvement, not J.W. Booth's. Most professional historians (as opposed to Tidwell, Hall, and Gaddy) still believe that Booth and his group acted alone after the kidnapping plot fell apart. The "highest levels of the Confederate government" would presumably include Jefferson Davis. It is almost certain that Davis would never have approved an assassination attempt upon Lincoln, inasmuch as such an event would have elevated his arch-enemy, V.P.Andrew Johnson, to the U.S. presidency.
Acting as a consultant to the Johnson administration (which desperately wanted to implicate high-ranking Confederates in Lincoln's murder) Judge Francis Lieber was given all War Dept. material and captured Confederate documents to determine whether Davis or his administration were involved in the assassination. Lieber concluded they were not. As with the Kennedy assassination, conspiracy theories abound regarding Mr. Lincoln's death, and probably always will.
> seeing as you have these anti-Southern feelings
Sigh. Are you *truly* that dense? I do not have "anti-Southern" feelings. Neither do I have "anti-German," "anti-Japanese" or "anti-Russian" feelings. But the Confederate, Nazi, Imperial and Commie regimes were evil abominations that the world is better off without. Those who wave Confederate, Nazi, ImpJap and Soviet flags are not only celebrating the historically evil, they're also celebrating a bunch of damned losers.
> feel free to never celebrate Shrove Tuesday again.
I never celebrated it for the first time. Be kinda hard to celebrate it *again.*
That's certainly a unique interpretation of the cemetery's establishment. Unique, and ridiculous.
But we're talking about Judah Benjamin's involvement, not J.W. Booth's.
We know Booth was a confederate agent. We know Benjamin was the head of the confederate secret service. We know Surratt is directly connected to both. Had Benjamin not burned all the secret service papers in April 1865, we might know a lot more.
Why then is there this need to bring up something which you know is going to agitate Southerners, who by in large, constitute the base of our party. It accomplishes nothing. In fact, the last time I know of that a Republican publically spoke against the rebel flag in the South, it ended up in the election of the first Democratic governor South Carolina in 16 years, granted, there was more to it than this, but not much more. All across the state there were "Keep the Flag, Ban Beasley" stickers, and in areas that were normally Republican strongholds, especially in the rural parts of the state, Hodges led Beasley in somewhat of a route.
When Hodges removes the flag, what happens, he gets unceremoniously dumped just like his predecessor, losing many of the same counties that elected him in the first place. I am not about to believe for a second that this same issue was inconsequential in the subsequent elections in Georgia and Mississippi. Perdue won a part of Georgia that Republicans never win in state-level elections, they just don't win it, but Perdue won it, and he did it by running on the flag. I'm not willing to say Perdue's lost the farm, because this won't bother voters in the Atlanta suburbs, however, Perdue would be amiss to believe that he's doing as well as the polls portend, cause there is going to be a backlash in southern Georgia.
And this brings us to Ronnie Musgrove, whose opponent made the flag one of his key issues in radio ads, Barbour never failed to bring up the flag, and Barbour ended up winning Mississippi. Given that Musgrove's strategy was to portray Barbour as an outsider, a strategy that almost always works in Mississippi, the fact that Musgrove made several attempts to take down the flag became an unforgivable sin in the eyes of Mississippians.
And back to Alabama, despite all the problems Folsom was having in 1994, he should not have won that election. Almost everyone who remembered the first James administration remember that he was one of the most ineffective governors in the state's history. And in 1994, Alabama was still very much a Democratic state, at every level. James still won, and I believe one of the reasons that James pulled off a victory is because fairly soon after Folsom became governor, he ordered that the rebel flag be taken down from the steeple at the capitol building.
It's just an issue that if you're smart, you do not touch. As it stands now, in one of the legislative districts in the suburbs, we have a candidate in the runoff, the rebel Veternarian. By virtue of the fact that he runs a pet clinic that is also licensed to sell Dixie Outfitters products, he earned a spot in the runoff, beating out the current president of the county school board. Now, I'm opposing his election due to some of his positions on local issues, however, I think it's highly probable that he wins the nomination, and if he does, his opponent will be a black Democrat. This issue is a hot potato in the area Republicans must steamroll in to do well nationally, and that's why these discussions, where Northerners continually assualt the veracity of the lost cause do not help things out. You're not getting any black votes by doing it, and more likely than not, you alienate white votes by doing it.
Folsom should not have lost.
> Why then is there this need to bring up something which you know is going to agitate Southerners, who by in large, constitute the base of our party.
Wrong is wrong, even when done by those nominally on your side. but you have to question if they really *are* on youyr side when they so twist history, such as claiming that the War Of Southern Aggression wasn't about slavery.
> You're not getting any black votes by doing it, and more likely than not, you alienate white votes by doing it.
Yes. Flying the flag of traitors who wanted to enslave black people and were willing to kill white people to keep the priveledge does not get you black votes, and it alienates white voters as well.
Time to grow up and realize that just because your ancestors flew that flag doesn't mean *you* should, just because it's your "heritage." Your ancestors also more than likely flew British or some other Euro flag... those days, for *you*, are done.
So you would recommend that the Alabama Republican Party should issue a formal statement, saying that "We're the party of Lincoln", and that no flag of the Confederacy should fly on government property.
If the Civil War happened today, which side would claim the space station? And how would the sides go about fighting for it?
(Come on, we all know it belongs to America! Remember back when we were going to call it "Space Station Freedom" before the reign of King Bill?)
Thought this would be a fun discussion to add to the mix!
> So you would recommend that the Alabama Republican Party should issue a formal statement, saying that "We're the party of Lincoln", and that no flag of the Confederacy should fly on government property.
1) Lincoln was a Republican
2) the Confedrates were:
A) Traitors
B) Defenders of anti-liberty
C) Losers
Do the math. Do you wish to emulate a pack of losers on the wrong side of history and justice?
Actually, if Lincoln were alive today, he'd most probably be a Democrat, given that he was a big government type who believed that the coercive power of the central government should be used to force the states into bending to the federal will. No in the South signed onto the Republican Party because of a new-found love of Abraham Lincoln, a distaste for their heritage or anything else. It was because the Republican Party was percieved as the party of conservatism and traditional values, and the Democrats were percieved as the liberal party, the beatnik party, and so on.
Just know that you don't have a future as a political consultant in the Deep South, at least not for Republicans. The Mississippi flag won't be changing for a long time. Now many people refuse to fly a rebel flag, just because many people think it's trashy. For the record, in our old neighborhood, we fell into this category. Most people sympathized with flying it, but flying it was something they wouldn't do. That's what affluence surrounding affluence does to someone. However, you'd see the Bonnie Blue flag in bumpersticker form, many of their kids would get rebel flags on their high school rings, and many of these people, if they do later move to a historic district, go out of their way to get a house where the shield has the battle flag instead of the third national.
When we moved down here on the river though, we moved to a place where the house can't be seen from the road. So then, I raised the flag with pride, something I had really not been able to do since we had moved back down here for good. You're never going to get a Southerner to say he's ashamed of his ancestors, or that his ancestors were wrong. Old money never does, many of us never put the flag in the yard, and alot of us would like the vet to lose, but in our hearts, we're no different than the rednecks out in the suburbs who have the thing flying everywhere. If we were different, then there would have been no third national compromise, as we would have replaced the battle flag on the city shield with a 1st national flag, which incorporates no elements of the battle design.
I suspect that your being unaware of the political realities contributes heavily to your position. Just remember, when the Democrats run against Southern heritage, they lose, when Republicans break ranks and do the same, they lose. People here still have more reverence for Lee then they ever will for Lincoln, and if you ask someone down here who was the greatest Republican president, everyone is going to say Ronald Reagan. For one thing, it's a statement of truth, bar-none, there was no president greater than Reagan. However, if you asked the question outside the South, I'm sure you'll get alot of Lincolns. You'll never get many people to answer that question with Lincoln here. If we haven't felt that way for 150 years, why are we going to now.
You know, there's a reason that Trent Lott said that if Davis were alive today, he would be Republican.
I doubt very many Jews were spat on in antebellum Philadelphia or Boston or New York or Chicago. Some Jews were accepted into the elite in Philadelphia (many intermarried or converted, but that was also true of many acculturated Southern Jews).
Anti-semitism grew stronger after the Civil War with the rise in the immigrant Jewish population. As minorities grow larger, so do frictions. Southern immigrant populations, whether Catholic or Jewish, were not that large, but one could see some of those frictions come to a head in the 1891 anti-Italian riots in New Orleans.
In the American Civil War there were at least seven Jewish generals on the Union side, and apparently none on the Condfederate side. That's as valid or significant a statistic as any other (There were also six Jewish recipients of the Medal of Honor in the Civil War).
"They think they're better than us" is a two way street. A lot of the neoconfederate factoid collectors and creators really do think they're better than the rest of the country. Why encourage them?
> Actually, if Lincoln were alive today, he'd most probably be a Democrat, given that he was a big government type who believed that the coercive power of the central government should be used to force the states into bending to the federal will.
How's that different from modern Republicans? Reference: abortion.
> Just know that you don't have a future as a political consultant in the Deep South, at least not for Republicans.
That's fine by me. I've been to the Deep South. Nice place to visit. Nice place to launch rockets from. Other than that... shrug. Too damned hot, humid and full of itself. It's like Boston, just hotter.
> You're never going to get a Southerner to say he's ashamed of his ancestors, or that his ancestors were wrong.
And that's the problem. With regards to the War Of Southern Aggression... those ancestors *were* wrong.
Consider: my ancestors, genetically and culturally, were long ago Vikings. June 8 is "Lindisfarne Day," in recognition of the day in 793 when, after having been warred upon by Charlemagne (conversion by the sword), a band of Vikings attacked the monestary on the Brit isle of Lindisfarne, sacked the joint and killed a slew of robe-waerin' nancy-boy monks. Amongst those who still follow the old Norse faith, there is much discussion whether this day should be recognized as a moment in history (specifically, the recognized beginning of the "Viking Age"), or whether it should be venerated as a holiday.
Now: should Lindisfarne Day be celebrated? Should Scandinavians and followers of the odl Norse faith taek this day to, say, hang out a bloody monk's robe? Stick a styrofoam severed Christian's head on a pike? Or would this be inappropriate? This sort of symbolism *IS* my heritage (as well as millions of others). But should it be celebrated? Should it be a source of pride?
> if you ask someone down here who was the greatest Republican president, everyone is going to say Ronald Reagan.
A Yankee from my home state. So, y'all are slowly catching up.
Yes but it is our fundamentaly flawed culture, and there is rarely ANY culture that does not have fundamental flaws , unless you are a Utopian liberal.
There is much goodness in Southern Culture, and it is to be lauded and preserved, which I notice you have a hard time doin, but I guess each to his own.
Hurrah for Dixie!
And thank goodness for the positive contributions that Southerners make to our military, in large doses of courage as well.
> There is much goodness in Southern Culture
I'm sure there is. But slavery was not a part of that goodness. And the whitewash of slavery is not a present goodness. And a celebration of the nadir of those fundamental flaws is... fundamentally flawed.
There is much to recommend Italian culture. Waving photos of Mussolini, however, is not the way to do it.
> And thank goodness for the positive contributions that Southerners make to our military, in large doses of courage as well.
This point has been raised innumerable times. And every single time, it's irrelevant.
you ignore the truth because it doesn't fit your frame of reference & prejudices.
free dixie,sw
the more i learn about DYs the better i like slugs, poisonous snakes & spiders.
the DIMocRATS would love it.
free dixie,sw
free dixie,sw
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