Questions on Ancient India, Gupta Civilization (Vanity)

[DeuceTraveler]

I just thought I'd throw this question out for the history fans to see what they think. I've been asked to research the military and cultural aspects of India's ancient Gupta civilization. I have to publish an article for a magazine on the subject, but am living in Germany and my personal library consists of American, European and Japanese historical works. I have hardly anything on India and have been searching the internet for factual information.

Besides an English translation of the Siva-Dhanur-Veda, I have not found anything of historical quality. Most of what I've seen focuses on some post-Modernist mumbo jumbo about how Hindus love and respect everyone and that the world would be a better place if we were all like the Indians.

Do any of you fellow historians have any recommended net pages that are more dependable? Thanks for any responses... time for me to read those fun Vedas...

[DeuceTraveler]

I just sent this to Indcons on private chate and thought it might explain some things.

I'm working on a D20 gaming conversion for the Indian myths. It's focused on a mythical kingdom, but the geography is India, the ruler is King Vikramaditya, and the culture is Hindi as opposed to Buddhist.

I've been asked to create a 30 page table top game dealing with common weapons and armor while at the same time adding a sense of Indian magic. Therefore mystical and legendary items are expected to be added in detail, also.

Since I'm a historian, I want to treat the subject with as much historical fact as possible and not just wing it. I want to take time to describe the material and description of any artifacts. I'm hoping that fans that love Indian culture won't find any mistakes since they tend to go over such products with a critical eye. Also, it's important for me to make the readers and players feel as if they are entering another culture. As it is a fantasy game, most elements deal with weapons, armor, and magic but I plan to depend heavily on mythical lore to describe such objects and make them come alive.

This is my first work this large and since it will be almost entirely dependent upon my research I want to blow the ship out of the water on my first go. I don't have a large amount of turnaround time as this just landed on my lap as of this morning. I'm enjoying the challenge, but I figure a little help from my fellow history fans doesn't hurt. That and you wouldn't believe the junk history that you find on the net. India has a rich and in depth military history, but it seems all people want to talk about is yoga. I'm off to either Brussels or Paris this weekend to check the museums for Indian artifacts and ancient weapons, depending on which city seems to have the largest collection.

[Fedora]

You might see what the Journal of Asian Studies has on it, or ask who their staff would recommend as an expert on the period:

The Journal of Asian Studies

Another suggestion: try contacting an Indian or British museum and ask for someone in the department that handles Indian history. When I was doing some research on Chinese history I found that much of the best material in the area I was researching had actually been written in English due to the historical British presence in China and the interest of British historians in the region. I imagine you would find a similar situation in India, with much material available in English.

Good luck on your rpg--sounds fun! I am actually doing something similar, which is one reason I follow these threads :-)

[DeuceTraveler]

I have high hopes for it, and thanks for the link! It's quite nice to be able to work on an entire project on my own and not just a few pages of write-ups.

[sagar]

"India's a wonderful place but the racism there makes the stoniest redneck from the woods of Georgia look like a New York liberal by comparison."

LOL!! After all, pariah is an Indian word for untouchables. It has now become an universal word for "outcasts".

But caste prejudice is not just in India, however. Countries like Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, and Pakistan are also rooted in caste system. Most of south Asia, even Buddhist Sri Lanka and Islamic Pakistan, there is a lot of casteist/racial/ethnic prejudice.

Within caste system, the highest priestly caste is seen as coward intellectuals(similar to limpwristed bloodbloods of Europe), while lowest caste are seen as impure non humans who dwell in filth, being born in filth.

What makes the caste system almost impossible to destroy is that the low castes absolutely hate the lowest castes, because, doing so, they are still the bigger fish. Ancient Indian philosopher Kautilya had different castes as different sizes of fish. The biggest fish eats the big fish. The big fish eats the small fish. And the small fish eat the smallest fish.

[sagar]

I don't know if sati/sutee was that widespread. Vedas don't even mention it, and epics such as Mahabharata there are thousands of accounts of deaths of men... and only 1 time there is the sutee account.

If it was a required/widespread custom, then there would be accounts of sati all over the scriptures(Hindu scriptures are extremely war-like and the accounts of deaths and destruction are recorded like action movies).

[sagar]

Gupta Period? Not during the primetime, though! CNN has him on the weekends.

[Appalled but Not Surprised]

What makes the caste system almost impossible to destroy is that the low castes absolutely hate the lowest castes, because, doing so, they are still the bigger fish. >>

Not that that might happen anywhere else, like, oh, I dunno.... /sarc

[Appalled but Not Surprised]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0449906140/sr=1-1/qid=1138837857/ref=sr_1_1/103-3495924-5151805?%5Fencoding=UTF8

May You Be the Mother of a Hundred Sons : A Journey Among the Women of India (Paperback) - Elisabeth Bumiller

"Before Elisabeth Bumiller lived in India in the mid-1980s, she had reported mainly on upper-crust Americans for the Washington Post. Her four-year stay turned her romantic image of India and largely unexamined feminist sentiments upside down and shook them hard. Although Indian women are guaranteed equality by their constitution, religious and cultural conceptions of their lowly role make this a hollow boast for many. Bumiller's well-spun book deals with admittedly sensational topics: a bride burning case; a rare death by sati, in which a young widow joined her husband on the funeral pyre; poor villages where girl babies are so unwelcome that some don't survive and cities where boy babies are given the edge by prenatal tests and the availability of abortion. Arranged marriages, the lives of village women, and the great histrionic appeal of the Indian film industry also catch her Western eye. Beneath the surface of each story several others bubble up, sometimes illuminating customs or obscuring easy outrage. Other times, though, they emphasize the limitations of being an outsider." --Francesca Coltrera (reviewer at AMAZON.COM)

[ARridgerunner]

The widows chose sati. Very rare. Not required. The women who chose it were very honored.

Not surprising the West could not understand a woman so devoted to her husband that she prefers death - literal and symbolic - to life without her husband.

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks btw for that reference to the "google.cn thing", I'm not sure I'd seen anything about it. If I had, I'd forgotten.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2006/01/28/google_china_censorship_fuels_calls_for_us_boycott/

[CarrotAndStick]

I'm not sure whether these were Completely Knocked Down Units(CKUs) which were assembled, but anyway, HAL makes the Jaguars and MiGs. It wouldn't be that difficult to refit the plants to make Sukhois, if it hasn't been done already:

http://www.hal-india.com/hal-su30.asp

HAL-BUILT SUKHOI-30MKI HANDED OVER TO IAF


On March 21st, 2005, HAL handed over the first batch of two Su-30MKI aircraft produced at Nasik Division of HAL to Indian Air Force.

At a formal ceremony, Mr Ashok K Baweja, Chairman, HAL handed over the documents of the two Su-30MKI aircraft to Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal S.P. Tyagi, PVSM, AVSM, VM, ADC, in the presence of dignitaries.

The Su-30MKI, is a twin engined, twin seater, multirole fighter and can simultaneously be operated as interceptor, bomber and trainer. The aircraft has day and night flying capabilities in all weather conditions. It can carry eight tons of combat load like air-to-air missiles, air to surface missiles, mid course guided aerial bombs and rockets. The aircraft has a life of 25 years & 6000 flying hours.

The manufacture of this fighter aircraft at HAL has been made possible by an Inter-Governmental agreement signed on October 04, 2000 between Russia and India. Subsequently, a general contract for the transfer of technology was signed between Rosoboronexport and HAL in Dec 2000. The project envisages production of 140 aircraft, its engines and equipment fitted thereon. HAL, Nasik Division is the prime manufacture of this aircraft supported by HAL Koraput, Lucknow, Korwa and Hyderabad Divisions, supplying engines, accessories and avionics.

Accepting the aircraft, Chief of the Air Staff said that “The induction of the Su-30MKI fleet has been a significant departure from the past wherein IAF inducted and operated Russian aircraft with minimal adaptation to Indian conditions and requirements. With the Su-30MKI aircraft we have for the first time entered a new era of cooperation with the Russians”. He further said “The Su-30MKI aircraft reflects not only a quantum jump in technology but has provided the IAF with a phenomenal increase in its war fighting capability”.

Chairman, HAL, Mr. Ashok K Baweja conveyed that while two Su-30MKIs were delivered, the third was almost in its completion stage. He lauded the involvement of the private sector in this project and complimented the HAL Nasik division for its work done.

A total of 140 Sukhois will be produced by the HAL in four phases. In addition, fifty of Su-30 series planes have already been inducted into the IAF in “flyaway” conditions.

[DeuceTraveler]

I checked yahoo.cn and a couple of others. They are all the same so google isn't the only one filtering information for the chinese government. However, they are the ones with the "Do No Evil" slogan, so the hipocracy stands out.

[CarrotAndStick]

Oops! Ignore my last post. It wasn't intended for you. Sorry!

[SunkenCiv]

I've done the same thing. Worst are the ones where I've got more than one reply window open, and switch 'em in error. ;')

[CarrotAndStick]

That's what's happened in my case. LoL!

[Cronos]

ok, that clarifies things -- however, statements like "I wish everyone was like the Indians" are pretty wierd -- Indians are as peaceful/warlike/likeable/detestable as anyone else.

For your purpose, on a game describing common weapons and armor in india in the early centuries after Christ, you would do well to note that, due to India's warmer climate, the concept of a full suit of armor never really took off, while elephants were used in a role similar to tanks of a modern military.

[DeuceTraveler]

Yep, I noticed that. In some of my readings it indicates that elephants were heavily armored, to the point that bowmen sometimes used metal shafts for better armor penetration.

Really interesting stuff, and I like what I've been reading so far. The stories of villians and the nobler heroes and betrayals and rescues have added a certain spice to the endeavor.

[neither-nor]

Welcome.

Check out the History school

http://www.jnu.ac.in/main.asp?sendval=SocialCenters

[DeuceTraveler]

Thanks! I just e-mailed their professor of ancient Indian history and hope I get a positive response.

[neither-nor]

this is the university run by marxist/anti(religion-culture-national)-islamloving crowd. They are ACLU/Berkley crowd of India.

I don't particularly care what they are. They have a fine tradition of scholarship and that is what I care about. My opposition to Marxist philosophy notwithstanding, I don't care whether they are anti-religion, Islam loving or any other alleged thing. JNU is a center of liberal arts learning, one of the few of that quality in India. Teachers and writers of the calibre of Bipan Chandra, Romila Thapar, Y Singh teach or have taught there. Too many other universities in India have gone down the tubes for me to reject JNU's tradition of scholarship.

Disclaimer: I never studied there, but hung around the place for large periods of time.