The Real Oliver Cromwell

[Sam Gamgee]

It seems to a modern consensus that Oliver Cromwell was a puritanical tyrant, no better than the king he replaced? I’m wondering if this has always been the view on Cromwell, or is it just a modern liberal revision of history? What was Cromwell’s real legacy? Part of me wonders if Cromwell has been vilified unfairly by the left in much the same way Franco has been. (A person I believe was saving his nation from International Communism – which for shame some of my countrymen fought alongside) One of the problems that faced the parliamentarians once the king was gone was how the run the country via parliament? The new American Republic solved this by creating the Executive (which was a controversy in its time) but severely limiting its powers. The British public threw out Cromwell and brought back the Stewarts – but was this simply a negative reaction to the beheading of a king – which was a little too much for the English public to stomach? Didn’t Cromwell bring stability, justice, and freedoms during his reign? Was he a reluctant head of state the movie “Cromwell” depicts him as? There are so many elements of history that were taught to me over my life I have come to learn later were lazy mis-truths. (Such as the dark ages being a relatively unimportant, barbaric, and mean period of European history). Didn’t Charles Martel stave off the Moslem horde during these years? I ramble, but interested in some feedback on Cromwell.

[Jemian]

Nic, you are a history buff (albeit American history); do you have any insights on this to share?

[RasterMaster]

What Cromwell's forces did to the Irish can't be revised to make it pretty.

[whershey]

Whatever you do don't go by the movie.

[brooklyn dave]

Ditto

[PzLdr]

Militarily, he was exceptional. He professionalized the Parliamentary forces he commanded, and was one of two, IMHO, great commanders of the English Civil War [the other being Prince Ruprecht]. That being said, he overthrew the Parliament he went to war for, and established a dictatorship. As was posted above, what he did to the Irish wasn't pretty. He was also one of the driving forces behind the deicide of Charles I. A mixed bag at best.

[PzLdr]

Senior moment alert. Deicide = Regicide

[Sam Gamgee]

I suppose the English in general have mixed records with their treatment of the English. Oliver did also contribute much to religious freedom. Killing the king I certainly would not hold against him. The English still held to the old and silly superstition about Kings being appointed by God. One wonders how bringing back the king was an improvement?

[Biblical Calvinist]

Sam, here's a link to an audio series on The History of the Reformation; within this series, you'll find SEVEN HOURS of lectures regarding the history of Olivor Cromwell.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?currPage=2&keyword=chalcedonpresbyterian&SourceOnly=true&currSection=sermonssource&subsetcat=series&subsetitem=History+of+the+Reformation&AudioOnly=false&SortBy=

I think that if you listen to this series, you'll find a fairly complete history of Olivor Cromwell; and that he has been a much maligned historical figure.

[Sam Gamgee]

Thanks for that. I think I will start at the beginning of the series so it will take a little time to get to Cromwell. And I love Calvinists. They may have been overly dogmatic but if it wasn’t for their challenge to established religious and political norms, we may never have had Puritans making their way to the New World to establish the freest civilization man has ever known.

[Sam Gamgee]

Listening to the first in the series. I got to tell you the lecturer pulls no punches. I forgot what a real demon King Charles was - brining foreigners, Catholics and Irishmen against free English peoples.

[Biblical Calvinist]

Amen, Sam; you're absolutely right about the Puritans. I've also listened to this complete series; it's truly insightful. This is one of the best; most accessible audio series on the History of the Reformation that I've ever heard. I imagine that you'll learn more than you ever knew before regarding Oliver Cromwell; but also regarding the Reformation itself.

[Biblical Calvinist]

Are you listening to the first lecture on the webpage of the link that I sent to you? While that's good; may I suggest that it may be best to listen to the series from the very beginning, starting at the very first lecture. Here's the link =

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?sourceonly=true&currSection=sermonssource&keyword=chalcedonpresbyterian&keywordDesc=&subsetcat=series&subsetitem=History+of+the+Reformation

[Sam Gamgee]

I use to be quite an Anglophile, so it has taken some time to break that from my thinking and realize that the English were not perfect – far from it, especially how they treated the Scots and the Irish. With that said I don’t accept the modern view that the Irish and Scots are victims of history. Irish armies invaded England numerous times hoping to bring their Papist thinking and force it down the English throat. An even view of Scottish history shows that their greatest enemy was themselves. Their nobles invited English kings to interfere in their affairs – what did they expect that would lead to? Scottish kings also considered the North Umbria fair game – and invaded that region countless times, hoping to add its lands to their kingdom. Sort of a separate topic, but I’m really into Scottish and English history at the moment.

[Biblical Calvinist]

Ok Sam..well; I know that you'll enjoy listening to this audio History of The Reformation. Sure; I'm also intrigued by the events of history, but only in a limited sense - as much as it regards the History of the Church, and particularily the Reformation.

I understand that you're interested in learning more about Oliver Cromwell, Sam - but I hope that you can listen, as time permits, to the complete series, as it's very good.

[Biblical Calvinist]

Ok Sam..well; I know that you'll enjoy listening to this audio History of The Reformation. Sure; I'm also intrigued by the events of history, but only in a limited sense - as much as it regards the History of the Church, and particularily the Reformation.

I understand that you're interested in learning more about Oliver Cromwell, Sam - but I hope that you can listen, as time permits, to the complete series, as it's very good.

[Mike Darancette]

The British public threw out Cromwell and brought back the Stewarts – but was this simply a negative reaction to the beheading of a king – which was a little too much for the English public to stomach?

My ancestors spent a lot of years living down that "Killing the King" thing. Leveler Bump.

[SunkenCiv]

could have sworn there was a recent discussion of Cromwell around here. Oh well.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a6605427caf.htm

Cromwell was a Puritanical tyrant. He made do with Parliament, but eventually couldn't get what he wanted, and dissolved it. Since he controlled the armed forces he could make that stick (unlike his predecessor, Charles I). For these reasons he's regarded as the first modern dictator.

After his death, Parliament appointed his son Richard Cromwell as Lord Protector. That didn't work out. The Parliament tried direct rule, as The Commonwealth, for about a year. Then it sent out feelers, and the impoverished Charles (soon to be Charles II) was invited back. He demanded (and got) some specified sum. It was delivered to the deck of his ship (a ship on loan from some mainland monarch), where he flipped open the lid, and spent a while just running his hands through the loot.

Upon his return to England, Chuck had Ollie's body exhumed and "punished" in various ways for regicide. The old crown of Charles I and a number of his predecessors was never found that I heard of. Possibly got melted down for coin, although one of the Sherlock Holmes mysteries revolves around the hiding place. Perhaps it was hidden, and everyone who knew where either got killed or exiled.

some BBC stuff on Cromwell:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/state/monarchs_leaders/cromwell_01.shtml

[SunkenCiv]

some more:

http://www.britannia.com/history/monarchs/mon48.html

[Sam Gamgee]

I read what those episcopal monsters did to
Ollie's body. No wonder the puritans fought to take back their church from these demons in bishop's robes. Some of today's congregation need to take their church back from their Israel thumping leadership.