Why do Sig P226R DAK and Sig P229R DAK have (or need) a decocker?

Shooting Times ^ | self

[rudy45]

SIGARMS (Dept. ST, 18 Industrial Dr., Exeter, NH 03833; 603-772-2302; www.sigarms.com) is having a very good year. It started last June when the Rhode Island state police completed its transition to the SIG P226R in .357 SIG as its standard duty firearm and reported that since November 2003 approximately 100,000 rounds had been fired through 200 duty pistols with no mechanical failures.

This was important because Rhode Island was the first agency in the country to adopt the new SIG DAKtm trigger system--a double action only (DAO) mechanism designed to provide a safe and reliable 6.5-pound trigger pull, which is much lighter than conventional DAO triggers. It was also important because it meant that four out of six New England state police forces are now carrying SIG pistols (the others are Vermont, Massachusetts, and Connecticut), joining other such major SIG-equipped state police departments as New Jersey, Virginia, and the Texas Rangers.

Then in August 2004, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Office of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) awarded SIG a five-year contract for up to 65,000 9mm and .40 S&W pistols. The contract is for full-size P226R and mid-size P229R rail pistols with the DAK trigger system and 12-round magazine capacity and the compact P239 seven-round single-stack with conventional DAO.

The selection process included pistols manufactured by several companies and involved the most extensive governmental testing and evaluation process since the historic military trials of the 1980s that resulted in the replacement of the Model 1911 .45 by the Beretta 9mm as the U.S. Armed Forces standard sidearm. The recent tests were in fact much more advanced and sophisticated than those earlier tests. Throughout the entire DHS testing the SIG pistols earned the highest scores possible.

SPECIFICATIONS - P226R DAK

Manufacturer: SIGARMS

Model: P226R DAK
Operation: Recoil-operated autoloader
Caliber: .40 S&W
Barrel length: 4.4 in.
Overall length: 7.7 in.
Weight, empty: 34 oz.

Safety: Firing pin lock, decocking lever, safety intercept notch, trigger bar disconnector
Sights: 3-dot tritium night sights
Stocks: Wraparound textured rubber
Magazine capacity: 12 rounds
Finish: Black stainless steel
Price: $915

 

Following on the heels of the DHS announcement, the U.S. Coast Guard awarded a contract to SIGARMS for the P229R DAK in .40 S&W, basing its decision on the performance of the SIG guns in the DHS tests. The Coast Guard pistols are in addition to those ordered for the DHS Office of Immigration and Customs Enforcement. The Coast Guard will be replacing its current Beretta 9mm pistols with the SIGs.

And if that wasn't enough, on December 22, 2004, the U.S. Army Tank-automotive and Armaments Command at the Rock Island Arsenal awarded SIGARMS a contract for 5000 9mm SP2022 pistols. The SP2022 is a polymer-framed SIG featuring an M1913 Picatinny rail with a stainless-steel slide and cold hammer-forged barrel.

That's three major federal law-enforcement and military contracts for SIGARMS in less than four months, in the midst of ongoing sales to a growing list of state police agencies and major municipal departments.

I think it's fair to say that SIG is on a roll and is mounting a major challenge to other pistol companies that have been dominant in the U.S. police and military markets in recent decades. Up until now, SIG pistols primarily have been the choice of elite-unit federal agencies that can afford the more premium-level prices that SIG commands. The introduction of the new DAK trigger system for the P226 and P229 models seems to be changing that, and SIG is preparing for increased demand.

SIG Model P229R DAK

In 2003 it expanded operations at its Exeter, New Hampshire, facility with the addition of several new state-of-the-art CNC machines, increasing production capacity by over 25 percent. And in 2004 SIGARMS received certification as an ISO 9001: 2000 company.

SPECIFICATIONS - SIG P229R DAK

Manufacturer: SIGARMS
Model: P229R DAK
Operation: Recoil-operated autoloader
Caliber: .40 S&W
Barrel length: 3.8 in.

Overall length: 7.1 in.
Weight, empty: 32.4 oz. Safety: Firing pin lock, decocking lever, safety intercept notch, trigger bar disconnector
Sights: 3-dot tritium night sights
Stocks: Wraparound textured rubber
Magazine capacity: 12 rounds

Finish: Black stainless steel
Price: $915 

The DAK Advantage
So what is this DAK thing? And why are people making such a big deal about it? In bare-bones description, the DAK mechanism provides a hammer-fired full-length double-action trigger pull, with complete repeat-strike capability, that is notably lighter than other full-length DAO pull mechanisms. Here's why this is important.

There are three factors at work in deciding what type, and "feel," of trigger action an agency (or an individual) wants once they have made the increasingly prevalent basic decision to use a DAO (i.e., noncockable) pistol instead of a conventional double-action design. One is length of trigger pull. Another is weight of trigger pull. And the third is whether or not you can re-pull the trigger in the event of a misfire without needing to manually cycle the slide. Assuming equal reliability/durability/accuracy among prospective designs, how those three factors are weighed and ranked in importance will determine what particular pistol's action a prospective purchaser/user will like best. Among well-known brands of DAO mechanisms the choices are extensive and confusing.

For example, the ubiquitous "safe action" Glock and the similar S&W Sigma are striker-fired and have very short trigger pulls (with an imbedded safety) that are lighter than the DAK trigger pull, but in the event of a misfire these designs require a manual rearward movement of the slide to "preload" the striker-fired mechanism before the trigger can be pulled again. Other DAO examples like the original S&W Third Generation auto pistols were hammer fired and had full-length trigger pulls in the 9- to 11-pound range but also required a manual rearward motion of the slide to partially cock the hammer and reset the trigger mechanism following a misfire (or dry-fire). Other designs like Taurus's compact Millennium and full-size 24/7 models are striker-fired, have an 8- to 10-pound full-stroke trigger pull, and have complete repeat-strike capability. In the event of a misfire, you can keep on pulling the trigger until the round goes bang or you decide to manually clear the action and try a fresh one.

[rudy45]

The article says that DAK is a DAO trigger pull. In that case, therefore, (because the hammer MUST (?) be down when the trigger is pressed) why have a decocker? The hammer never should be in a cocked position, right?

Or is the article wrong in specifying the decocker?

Thanks.

[rudy45]

ping

[A Jovial Cad]

First, allow me to thank you for posting this. I am a huge Sig fan, and own a P239 in .357 Sig (of course).

I can't speak to all the technical issues, but I enjoy the "decocker" function because it allow me to safely lower the hammer after racking the slide to chamber the first round. Also, the hammer on my Sig DOES NOT have to be "down" to fire; once can cock the hammer and fire, or simply pull the trigger, just like a revolver. All Sigs, as far as I know, are DAO.

The hammer never should be in a cocked position, right?

One of the reasons I don't CCW a 1911 is for this very reason: most of the folks I know who carry one for personal protection leave the hammer cocked at all times, with the main safety engaged (there is, of course a secondary grip safety), but I've never been comfortable with it. Heck, I know one fella who doesn't even engage the main safety, but counts on the grip safety alone while carrying his 1911 (this I definitely wouldn't recommend). Probably more a matter of psychology than safety, but I've just never been comfortable with single-action "cocked and locked" for routine carry.

Just my $0.02.

[A Jovial Cad]

Ah, correction from above: I meant to say the Sigs I've seen, including my own, are NOT DAO, but fire just like a revolver. The model in the article has a hidden hammer, but I haven't seen this particular model.

[cryptical]

The article says that DAK is a DAO trigger pull. In that case, therefore, (because the hammer MUST (?) be down when the trigger is pressed) why have a decocker? The hammer never should be in a cocked position, right?

I'm going to guess that they didn't change the decocker from a standard pistol, they just changed the part that modifies it from DA/SA to DAO, and the decocking lever is non-functional.

[Shooter 2.5]

I think that's why Detonics were designed as they were. The rear sight was forward with a cut just to the rear and no grip safety. I think they liked the idea of keeping the hammer forward and then the shooter cocking when needed.

I carry in condition one myself. That's hammer back on a chambered round with the safety on.

[petro45acp]

Adding an additional .02

"First, allow me to thank you for posting this. I am a huge Sig fan, and own a P239 in .357 Sig (of course)."

I have friends (officers all) who own, shoot, and love their SIGs. I can't. The triggers always feel clunky, overtravel is prevalent in those I've fired, and even with the DAK, the pull is going through an arc that requires more training than is common in departments.

"I can't speak to all the technical issues, but I enjoy the "decocker" function because it allow me to safely lower the hammer after racking the slide to chamber the first round. Also, the hammer on my Sig DOES NOT have to be "down" to fire; once can cock the hammer and fire, or simply pull the trigger, just like a revolver. All Sigs, as far as I know, are DAO."

Standard (non-DAK, non-DAO) SIGs are Double Single action like their Beretta bretheren. I've carried a 1911 and never decock the device. Going from tactical carry to administrative doesn't involve lowering the hammer neither does going from admin back to tac carry. I'd recommend ISMI Silicon Carbide springs as they are VERY much less prone to take a set and deliver strong consistent throw throughout their life.


"The hammer never should be in a cocked position, right?

One of the reasons I don't CCW a 1911 is for this very reason: most of the folks I know who carry one for personal protection leave the hammer cocked at all times, with the main safety engaged (there is, of course a secondary grip safety), but I've never been comfortable with it. Heck, I know one fella who doesn't even engage the main safety, but counts on the grip safety alone while carrying his 1911 (this I definitely wouldn't recommend). Probably more a matter of psychology than safety, but I've just never been comfortable with single-action "cocked and locked" for routine carry."

I wouldn't recommend the grip safety only carry, but with the primary safety, the grip safety, and in the case of the series 80, the firing pin block, the pistol is mechanically well safed. This of course in light of Cooper's second and a half rule, "...place guarded trust in mechanical safeties." Frankly the main safety we all need is an alert and contientious mind (fortunately this is the case in nearly all the serious gunfolk I've encountered).

Outside of a shallower departmental training curve, the best reason I can see for the double action trigger is that second strike on a hard primer. Although, I can't recall when I've had that problem in anything but a reload, and then, seldom.

"Just my $0.02."

Up to .04,
Stay alert,

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[msg-84]

I must be missing something here.

The SIG DAK (Double Action Kellerman) pistols do not have external hammers or decockers. This was a requirment for the Dept. Homeland Security contract.

The specs and evaluation process are detailed here:

http://www2.eps.gov/spg/DHS-BT/INS/COW/COW%2D4%2DR%2D0014/Attachments.html

Click on Equipment Specification (SOW). It is a big download at 9 MB.

This was a very comprehensive set of requirements; the govt had some very specific features that they wanted.

[rudy45]

I must be missing something here. The SIG DAK (Double Action Kellerman) pistols do not have external hammers or decockers. This was a requirment for the Dept. Homeland Security contract.

you and me both lol. Then, is the Shooting Times article sidebar INCORRECT, in stating that the DAK semiautos do have decockers? It would seem so... Thanks.

[Cobra64]

One of the reasons I don't CCW a 1911 is for this very reason: most of the folks I know who carry one for personal protection leave the hammer cocked at all times.

No one we have known, would EVER carry a weaopon with a round in the shute and have the hammer cocked. No purpose and recipe for no purpose. You may want to re-visit the discussion with your acquaintances.

(shaking head - dizzy)

[petro45acp]

"One of the reasons I don't CCW a 1911 is for this very reason: most of the folks I know who carry one for personal protection leave the hammer cocked at all times."

Condition two (hammer down on a round,1911) is a valid carry technique, but it definitely affects speed and stability of the draw stroke. It also adds a small motor skill to the stroke which when the adrenaline is flowing can be problematic.

"No one we have known, would EVER carry a weaopon with a round in the shute and have the hammer cocked. No purpose and recipe for no purpose. You may want to re-visit the discussion with your acquaintances."

I have heard this argument before. The idea of keeping funeral money in the 6th chamber of a peacemaker and such. The Israeli technique of drawing the pistol with the hammer down on an empty chamber and including a slide rack in the draw-stroke. All these apply to older technology. In the case of revolvers, hammer blocks keep a free falling hammer from striking the primer. In semi-autos, better metalurgy (the Israeli case) and firing pin blocks provide better "safety." Forged carbon steel or MIM parts from reputable manufacturers are sound and reliable.

Carrying a 1911 in condition 1 or "cocked and locked" calls for training, good equipment, Cooper's 4 rules thoroughly ingraned, and training.

Last point on the Sig DAK, it is likely the article misstated. The pistol has an external hammer, but no hammer spur. It rests in the down position flush with the back of the slide and never locks in the rearward position. A conventional Sig does have a decock lever as it is a DA/SA design.

Stay alert,
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[Cobra64]

I have two Sigs. The P226 in the nightstand and a P232 for carry. Both are always chambered but never cocked. But that's just my mentality.

[petro45acp]

"I have two Sigs. The P226 in the nightstand and a P232 for carry. Both are always chambered but never cocked. But that's just my mentality."

Most excellent! Condition 1 for both those pistols and the intended ready mode for both.

Cheers,
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[glasslobster]

I’m amazed at the conversations I have seen in this particular post.

Anyone who owns a 1911 pistol knows that they are designed to be carried “cocked and locked” that is the reason they have the types of safeties they have. Have you ever been to a marksmanship school or target training course? The INSTRUCTORS teach you to carry your 1911 COCKED AND LOCKED.

Read anybody’s articles in ANY gun magazine! YOU CARRY A 1911 COCKED AND LOCKED. PERIOD.

And for the rest of you who seem to have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to DA/SA and DAO/DAK.. try picking up a couple issues of HANDGUNS MAGAZINE OR AMERICAN HANDGUNNER and learn about your own guns since it seems you have no idea. Then maybe you can be qualified to post your input.

by the way.. DAO handguns do not have a decocker PERIOD

The gun is NEVER COCKED.. THE action of pulling the trigger on a DAO pistol COCKS, then FIRES the gun.. that is why it is called Double Action Only..

[Cobra64]

The jerk that wrote the article hasn't a clue. A Sig DAK by definition means that it does NOT have a de-cocker.

This is a Sig P229 DA/SA with de-cocker. It is the lever above the magazine release. Its purpose is to lower the hammer if cocked. The weapon can still be fired in double action mode with 11# of trigger pull. Or, if manually cocked, in single action mode. Each subsequent shot is single action with 4# of trigger pull.

This is a Sig P229 DAK. Without de-cocker. It is DAO with 6# of trigger pull.

This is my P226 with decocker. All three of my Sigs and H&Ks are DA/SA with de-cocker. Twelve pounds of trigger pull on first shot, 4# on each successive shot.

[Shooter 2.5]

I don’t see anything in the article which Dick Metcalf wrote that implies having a decocker for that particular model. I might have missed it but skimmed over the article something like four times. It’s in the sidebar so someone editing the magazine was at fault.

[Shooter 2.5]

All the 1911 carriers I have seen or talked to carry in condition one.

The first person I had every seen with a locked and cocked 1911 was a Texas Ranger. I thought that was kind of cool.

[Captiva]

No decocker, but a grip cutout for one (yuck)

[menahunie]

Same here; I used to carry a 1911 with cocked and locked. That was until I got home and tossed it on my bed - about a one foot drop.I know I'm going to get flamed except I had taken the hammer to half cock. When it hit the bed it went off; just missed my left knee and blew a hole on the bedroom closet door. I was using the “flying Ash Tray” round - 200 grain JHP..
After that I have been using a sig 226 since.
The DAO argument from what I can figure doesn't have anything to do with the transition between DA/SA modes. Maybe when you are “target” shooting.
The DAO issue has mainly to do with LAWYERS and Civil/Criminal neg. law suites.
How many times have you been yelled at by the trainer NOT TO COCK YOUR WEAPON when holding a perp at gun point? Reason is you are under allot of stress and fine motor skills go out the window. When the person you are giving orders to starts to jink and jerk around your PUCKER FACTOR GOES WAY WAY UP... YOU WILL START TO SQUEEZE YOUR WEAPON WITH YOUR HANDS VERY HARD. If you have cocked your weapon it will go bang without you noticing it and the “OH SH$T” factor kicks in..
That DAO pull won't be even noticed; BUT if you cock the hammer - you are looking at an almost 100% chance of an accidental discharge..
THAT IS WHY TRAINERS WILL DEMAND YOU INDEX YOUR FINGER AND NOT PUT IT IN THE TRIGGER GUARD ON THE TRIGGER.. You have to do this with a glock; you only put your finger on the trigger unless you are going to shoot.
There has been many demonstrations with a Glock where the test person thought they were taking up the trigger slack - except the Glock doesn't have any. What they were doing and the gun went off scaring them was taking the weapon from half cock to full cock and fire.
Every time I watch a show or movie and the person in it cocks their weapon - handgun etc. I cringe and curdle my toes.
The one reason previously mentioned is many agencies are using DAO weapons to to avoid the “Accidental Discharge” law suites. Even when you are in a lethal threat incident and your weapon is a DA/SA YOU WILL BE GRILLED AS TO IF YOU HAD EITHER COCKED YOUR WEAPON OR DID NOT; so as to avoid that attack in court DAO weapons are being used more and more. Also many people who were not raised around firearms and take up the carry or LEO profession.
There is a video on Youtube where I think it is LVMPD taking down a perp by a car; one officer is cuffing him while the perp is being covered by another office when she accidentally fires her weapon and the round striking the ground next to the perp’s head.