Posted on 01/11/2005 6:18:33 PM PST by malakhi
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I believe you're referring to Isaiah 9:6-7. That is another verse that Christians claim for Jesus. According to numerous sources the Christian version of that passage differs from the Jewish version.(Some say the original OT text has been altered) If you want, i have several links which explain it.
Isn't there supposed to be a 'false messiah' before the real Messiah?
Christians expect a false messiah prior to the real messiah. Doesn't the NT state that the anti Christ existed then (during the time the NT was written)? If so, will the supposed false messiah be a different anti Christ than the antiChrist of NT times?
I can't say that I have ever read anything pertaining to the True Messiah performing miracles.
As I said in an earlier post, seems to me (but i am not positive) that there is some OT verse(s) that warn against being impressed by miracles....but i'd have to look for it.
I believe it is not Jesus, based on what he hasn't accomplished.
All that is to be accomplished ... will be accomplished ... in God's time.
Is there scripture in support of a false messiah that shows up prior to the True Messiah?
Well ... the whole premise of the NT is that Jesus is the Messiah (Christ) ... and there's nothing that precedes His coming in the NT, ... so that leaves the OT.
I don't know of anything in the OT, ... do you ?
Is a "lasting peace"...1, 2, 3, 4, or more generations...or forever? What about the 1000 year reign?
Actually ... a world-wide peace lasting longer than 4 years or so would probably be sufficient.
Also, is he supposed to be a "man" to Christians....or something other than that?
In the New Testament, Jesus is presented as a man ... and, of course, as more than a man.
Quester, you quoted passages from Isaiah 35. I just reread Isaiah 34 and 35....and I can see those passages as describing what's going on in Iraq presently ... more than them describing miracles of Jesus. I do not see it as a prophesy about a messiah at all. Also, IMO, every word of those verses doesn't have to be taken in the literal sense. "The blind see" can be taken in a figurative sense also. Example: I used to be blind, but now i see the truth. (of course you would disagree. ) ;-) Then again, if you want to be more literal, there is no need to dismiss modern medicine and technology as "miraculous" by standards during biblical times. Both can do much to heal/cure/improve health as well as environmental difficulties. I'm not saying the real meaning should be taken literally in that sense....just that it is another way of looking at it. Again, i just don't see it saying that a messiah performs those miracles. It's like someone just randomly plucked a verse out of the OT, totally out of context, and claims it for Jesus. Gotta read it in context, IMO.
It, certainly, doesn't have to read literally ... but it certainly can be.
And I think that there are very few persons which would interpret the passages in question as referring to the Iraq War.
So if some leader comes on the scene, establishes world peace for 4 or more years, will Christians see him as the second coming of Jesus as opposed to the antiChrist? And if so, then will Christians be able to name the antiChrist who preceeds this guy?
I think that there are very few persons which would interpret the passages in question as referring to the Iraq War.
I have read suggestions (from Christian websites) that Basrah (of chapter 34) might refer to el Buseirah, in Jordan, or Basra in Iraq . Either way, according to chapter 34, God destroys nations...with much anger directed toward the city of Basra (within the nation of Edom...*i THINK*). Then chapter 35 is about the restoration (or hope for it.) Whether it's Iraq...or another country in the mideast makes little difference. My point is that those verses are about the destruction of a nation (or nations) and then...the restoration that follows. I take it for what it says. If it says anything about a messiah in those verses, please point it out, because i'm somehow missing it.
Check Isaiah 34 and 35 out at blueletterbible.com. Here are links to the NLT version (a quick read if you prefer).
chapter 34:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Isa&chapter=34&version=nltp&Go.x=29&Go.y=15
chapter 35: http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Isa&chapter=35&version=nltp&Go.x=27&Go.y=9
I don't know of anything in the OT, ... do you ?
Then why does Christianity teach that there will be a false messiah prior to Jesus/or the real messiah?
So if some leader comes on the scene, establishes world peace for 4 or more years, will Christians see him as the second coming of Jesus as opposed to the antiChrist? And if so, then will Christians be able to name the antiChrist who preceeds this guy?
Whoa ... there's a lot of hypotheticals there ... more than I can reasonably answer.
What I can say is this ... Christians expect Jesus to return and to establish everlasting world-wide peace.
I have read suggestions (from Christian websites) that Basrah (of chapter 34) might refer to el Buseirah, in Jordan, or Basra in Iraq . Either way, according to chapter 34, God destroys nations...with much anger directed toward the city of Basra (within the nation of Edom...*i THINK*). Then chapter 35 is about the restoration (or hope for it.) Whether it's Iraq...or another country in the mideast makes little difference. My point is that those verses are about the destruction of a nation (or nations) and then...the restoration that follows. I take it for what it says. If it says anything about a messiah in those verses, please point it out, because i'm somehow missing it.
Does not the restoration occur in a Messianic context ?
Don't lock the thread. We'll be back in 7 years with a new moderator! :')
Well ... the whole premise of the NT is that Jesus is the Messiah (Christ) ... and there's nothing that precedes His coming in the NT, ... so that leaves the OT.
I don't know of anything in the OT, ... do you ?
Then why does Christianity teach that there will be a false messiah prior to Jesus/or the real messiah?
Christianity teaches that an (or more) antichrists will arise before Jesus comes again, ... but Jesus, who we believe is the Messiah, ... has already come.
Jesus, Himself, warned us of this ...Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Man, the news thread depressing today. I was looking for the verse in Rev. that states his can not be deceived. Do you know which one I'm talking about?
The scripture that gave me most eschatological comfort back in the day was the one about not to look here and there for chirst but "as the lightning comes from the east and shines unto the west so shall the coming of the son of man be." This kind of tell those who are so inclined that there will be no doubt when he arrives. Nothing will, be so to speak, left in doubt about the return.
I was looking for the verse in Rev. that states his can not be deceived. Do you know which one I'm talking about?Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
I like this part alot. :-)
wow a couple of geniuses on the same wavelength. :-)
lol. Good to have you back:')
That's it. Thanks. I thought it was in Revelations.
well ok the geniuses part might have been accurate but there's some work to do on the same wavelength part. :-)
No argument here ... ;^)
Isaiah 35:3 Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.
4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
My point is that you have taken those few verses out of context and applied them to Jesus of the NT. It is not honest scholarship to pluck out a few verses and fit them to Jesus of the NT, while ignoring the entire remaining (and much larger) portion of the prophesy. I suspect you'll say he'll accomplish the other 90% of the prophesy when he returns...even though there is nothing in OT prophesy which supports a messiah coming, being killed, and coming back one more time to complete the job.
Besides that, i still don't interpret the passage to mean that the messiah himself ( whoever he may be...the guy the Christians expect...or the guy the Jews expect)will be the one to perform a literal miracle of curing blind, deaf, and lame people. I see it as the blind will see, the deaf will hear, the lame will walk (perhaps figuratively...those blinded to truth will see it, hear it, walk it) as a result of the restoration (yes..brought about by the messiah) ...not as the result of the messiah performing a miracle as described in the New Testament. I can also see it literally, in the sense that with everyone working together... our future expertise in medicine and technology will be what we consider miraculous. I just don't interpret it as though the messiah will perform supernatural feats. JMO.
Ahhh...i will be in GREAT company!
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