Posted on 11/25/2004 11:35:44 AM PST by A. Pole
I have the following question:
I see that many Ukrainians claim that Russia is not the legitimate inheritor of Kievan Rus, that the present Ukraine is.
Do you want to change the name of Ukraine into "Rus"? If not, why?
Mixed bunch in the employ of Soviet state is "soviets". To the extent "Soviet" state is "Russian" state they become Russian proxies. If you have time, you may assign percentages.
The thing to blame Russians for is the low quality of their civilizational model which they repeatedly built for themselves over the last 1000 years. When they attempted to spread that model, except to even deeper barbarians, the blame intensifies.
You need to measure them by their starting point. The craddle of their nation was the most remote corner of Europe with harsh cold climate which was overrun, looted and burned every few generations by the hordes of savage nomads from Huns and earlier to Genghis Khan. Their technology was primitive, tribal, they did not have much of civilization. Still they had the spark of genius to lift them up.
In these conditions they managed to survive, to build up while paying the tribute to the Mongols converting to Islam.
They defeated their overlords, colonized and turned to agricultural use vast lands in the north and managed to turn the endless lands of the central Eurasia from the center of chaos (heart of darkness) into some form of legal order.
They developed beautiful form of Christianity, imported and eagerly learned Western science and civilization (under Peter the Great and after). Then paid back West with the immortal works of art and literature.
Yes they are poorer than people in Western Europe, but they were even poorer in proportion when they started. Still the money is not everything.
They covered in 1000 years what took the Europe more than 2000 years (American did not start from zero either as they continued Western European traditions)
Who would do better in their place?
I wonder if you are really an American... but then, we do have our share of bigots and I have lurked here enough to know that sometimes they try to post of FR.... and most get caught!
Shame on you.
This whole idea of "my ethnic identity is better than yours", really makes me sick.
People need to knock it off on this site. I am serious... they need to KNOCK IT OFF!!
THIS IS AMERICA!!
Ping
yeah, it is actually pretty safe to blame the russian soviets for it.
Austrians are more German than Ukrainians (Western) are Russian. Georgians are related to Chechens, Kurds, Iranians and Armenians. Also Hitler was the head of a nationalist regime.
Bolsheviks were internationalists and they created separate republics to weaken Russians as the core ethnic group. Stalin started to invoke Russian patriotism only after being attacked by Germany in order to mobilize Russians to fight.
Gee, I guess we won't hold that against him then.
Starvation took place longe before German attack, and it took place in the ethnic Russian territories as well.
The alleged motivation for Stalin's crimes was not nationalism, but this is irrelevant to the horror of his crimes, especially since the whole of the communist ideology was nothing more than a pack of atrocious lies meant to cover up rabid theft, rapine, genocide, and conquest. Stalin killed millions for the same reason as Hitler, because he was a psychotic bloodthirsty monster.
It was not "Russian" imperialism. It was Soviet imperialism which was bleeding Russia dry. Once Rusians prevailed in their own country in 1991, the same forces of progress became hostile to Russia. People like EU officials/Soros etc are secularists, internationalists and the real continuators of Bolshevik agenda in a kinder gentler form. Their program is expressed in these words:
Imagine Imagine there's no heaven, It's easy if you try, No hell below us, Above us only sky, Imagine all the people living for today... Imagine there's no countries, It isnt hard to do, Nothing to kill or die for, No religion too, Imagine all the people living life in peace... Imagine no possesions, I wonder if you can, No need for greed or hunger, A brotherhood of man, Imagine all the people Sharing all the world... You may say I'm a dreamer, but Im not the only one, I hope some day you'll join us, And the world will live as one.
Same way as they ruined Russia in a violent open way, they are ruining Europe through the moral decay.
The famine in the Ukraine was one of many such mass deaths in the USSR - the majority of Soviet caused deaths killed more ethnic Russians then any other "Soviet" peoples.
That being said, there are times when we can ally with Putin in defense or advancement of AMERICAN interests. I think we should help him and Russia in every way in identifying the savages who seized the school and killed the innocent children. I would appreciate the opportunity of witnessing up close what Putin will do to the perps when they are apprehended.
As Zbigniew Brzezinski (sp.?) observed the other day at a hastily called AEI conference on the Ukrainian election, the Russian future will be determined in this controversy. Russia will have a democratic future if the challenger in Ukraine is upheld and a return to imperial ambition if the incumbent Ukrainian is retained in office.
Although ironically the Putin supported incumbent has provided 1,500 or so troops under American commanders in Iraq to mollify the US and the challenger is submitting to Ukrainian popular opinion by pledging to withdraw them, it is clearly in the interests of the United States to see to it that Ukraine is truly free of Russia and that Russia is powerful enough under any leadership to defend itself from most opponents and hampeerd enough not to pose any threat to the US.
Russian "imperialism" also has a tradition but none of us have been alive and aware to observe it directly because of the atrocities of 1917-1921 in Russia which created the opportunity for soviet government and thus for soviet imperialism.
As to "Imagine" and its execrable composer, he probably would not have gotten along with Putin since, whatever his sins, Putin is no Gramscian.
I've always thought there were better names for Ukraine, following its independence from the USSR:
Malorus, as Kiev lies farther down the Dniepr River.
Derevni Rus (the ancient Rus)
Ukrainians seem to identify themselves (from my exp) in terms of not being Russian or Polish or Belorussian, and not being Orthodox. As Uniates that share a heritage with the Poles and Lithuanians, whose state was founded by Swedes and Greeks, it's always held my curiousity. We maybe able to propose new names if partition happens....
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