Posted on 10/28/2004 6:43:59 PM PDT by Sonar5
Hi all,
I need some help and I am fuming about this. Today an incident happened at my son's school that concerns me greatly.
He is in 4th Grade and is age nine. One of his friends brought a small pocket knife to school and allegedly showed it to my son and others at their lunch table. Apparently he did not open the blade, and quickly put it away. No one was threatened. They are all friends in scouts, church, or sports.
One of the other children after lunch, not mine, told a teacher about it. I get a phone call at about 1:15 stating my son was involved in an incident at school. I ask first is he ok, the administrator says yes.
She then explains that my son and others failed to tell an adult or teacher they saw someone else with a knife at school and that she questioned my son. I asked if he was threatened, and she replied no.
She stated the student who brought it would probably be expelled. I thought that was the end of it, since my son didn't bring the knife, no one was threatened, and my son, nor anyone else held it, nor was the blade even shown.
First off, these are 9 year olds. And I'm ok with the kid that told, and whatever happens to the kid that brought it happens. My son didn't feel it was serious.
My concern is the treatment of my son as having done something wrong.
My son got home about 3:40 or so, and I immediately asked him what happened, who was involved, was he threatened, did he or anyone else hold it, etc....
He then told me he was interrogated without my knowledge inside a closed room with only him and the administrator and talked to about what he did wrong by not telling an adult, asked questions, and the administrator was writing down the responses. Two other children who did not say anything were also subjected to this interrogation, seperately.
He and the two others were then pulled out of class before recess and during recess were taken to the office where they, without my knowledge were coerced into writing false statements stating they made bad choices by not telling an adult, and one other example of making a bad choice.
All three were told if they did not bring the form signed by a parent tomorrow, they would miss recess.
So, now my son is made out to have done something wrong. By the way, the administrator signed the form at the top.
My son was never advised of his rights to call us, and have us present, was never advised why he had to write the form, and we were never notified of the form until our son arrived home.
My son is in Scouting and considers a knife a tool, and knows the difference between showing something and getting threatened. He has also been trained in the proper use of a knife, a safety circle, etc... He knew what the student did was wrong, and he knew not to bring those types of items to school.
So what would you do.
We are not signing the form, and I talked to him about his rights, and the fact he did nothing wrong, the student who told did nothing wrong, the only one who did something wrong was the student who brought it, and the way he was treated.
I then went into explaining his rights to him, and about no longer answering any questions without us present.
So put yourself in my shoes, and ask what you would do. I felt the initial incident was no big deal, neither did my son at first. Now I feel my son and we as parents were violated in our rights, as well as our sons.
BTW - I tried calling the administrator who called earlier, and tried to tell her we were not returning the form, and we feel he shouldn't have to miss recess, and be punished, and she replied she didn't like my tone, and then stated the conversation is over, and hung up on me. Nice, huh?
Any help would be appreciated.
Regards, Sonar5
Garsh thanks! Roger, no gun to class. ;~D
I did not mean the intent of the child who took the knife to school. By now all parents should be aware of the zero tolerance rules about weapons. If I were that child's parents I would also want to be there for questioning & or signing of statements though. I would also make it plain to the child they did something against the rules, no matter the intent.
I think this parent, as a parent of a witness, needs to know the intent of the school in having her child sign a statement. How will this statement be used?
If the intent of the statement was as a lesson about reporting the other child then the parent needs to decide whether to cooperate with officials.
If the statement will be used against the child who brought the knife- possibly even ending up in court or be used by child services as evidence against the other child's parents that makes it something I would be careful about.
I would have to know all the circumstances to make a decision if I were the parent of any of these children involved. That is why I advised a sit down with the officials. I just do not sign these type of things, as you just never know how they will be used for sure.
In one of her posts she said the police and SS called. You could be right about opening but do you see my point about how this zero policy causes over reaction. It may be a relief for teachers/principals not to have to make decsions but it also takes away using good judgment. Boys can be very loyal. I used to hear all the time "I'm not ratting". You can't make them, and I don't think you should but kids have to learn to make good decisions too. Ex:, If they are with someone that gets caught stealing or with drugs they are in trouble too.
Why are some words color linking ?
We had something similar happen to us. We hired a lawyer. We are now thousands of dollars poorer.
I'm sorry to say this, because I was once idealistic about fighting city hall (so to speak). BUT DO NOT HIRE A LAWYER. A lawyer in a case like this will only fleece you, piling on the "billable hours" while getting you nowhere. With public schools, the deck is so stacked against you, you will not get anywhere.
If you can get a conservative/libertarian group to help you -- such as HSLDA, as someone suggested, more power to you. You could try going to the websites of the Rutherford Institute and the Center for Individual Rights -- they sometimes help pro bono with cases like this; but their funds are limited and they will usually help out only if they think your case is of major constitutional significance.
Oh, and btw: We homeschool now.
It sounded to me more like a lesson than a 'statement'. It was an admission that the right thing to so was to report the knife, and that he did wrong by not reporting it. It had the kid come up with another example on his own of similar judgment decisions... this is called "application". Can the child apply what he just learned to new situations? (doubtful, the kid doesn't know what's right from wrong after all this)
The answer certainly is ~not~ to teach them to condone and hang around kids that break the rules. We know about loyalty, but loyalty to friends is not the highest lesson from the point of view of the parent. The same kid will face many choices from 'friends' that they should learn to avoid.
Yeah, you guide them, and then you have to let them go, praying they will make the right choices. Nothing wrong with walking away.
How come you are up so late? :')
Good question.... maybe it's cuz I just realized it's 10:37 and I am still drinking coffee. ;~D
I forgot about you time zone. It's 12:30 here.
But you're right... I'm not usually up even this late in this time zone....
Thanks again, everyone.
I have reviewed all the School Board Policies and state law regarding this.
Nothing is found about witness treatment or forms or questions, etc...
What I did find is the relevant state law and policy they state shows the blade must be Greater than 2 1/2 inches in length, or a locking blade knife.
From my son's description, he thinks he saw a cub scout logo. If that is the case, most all of them are 2 1/4 or 2 1/2 inches in length.
That length defines whether it is a weapon under their policy and state law.
I will assume for now the blade was 2 1/2 inches. That would mean the child was legal from state law and school board policy, unless he displayed the blade, which my son said he did not.
I will go in the morning to talk with the principal, view my sons records, and ensure this will not be a part of his record.
I will also not sign the form, and explain why.
Then hopefully that will be the end of it.
If however they choose a different course, then I think I found a few violations in their own policy, state law, notification, and other things if that blade was 2 1/2 inches or under, and didn't lock, which no official scout knives I know of do that.
Folks, I asked these questions to gain perspective and I have read them all, every one, even though I have not responded to every one.
At this point, I am convinced my son did the right thing, he told the truth when asked if he was shown a knife. He should have been commended for telling the truth, and that should have been it, IMHO. That would hav ebeen the correct course of action here, along with notifying me. These administrators should be trained what to do, and if this is it, there are some serious problems with it.
But they chose a different course, one prone with problems for how they treated my son.
His reward for telling the truth when asked about it, is he is threatened with punishment if he does not return a signed form saying he made bad choices by not telling. And that is a bad impression to leave my son with. He knows right from wrong, he knows a bragging form a threat, and he now knows what his rights are when questioned. That is the important lesson here, that he can't be railroaded as he was for what may turn out to not be a violation at all.
And I plan to share these findings with the parents of the student who brought the knife as well.
Our course of action will now depend on their response to our concerns.
Thanks again for all your help. I knew I could count on our fine group of freepers.
Since 1998,
Sonar5
Unfortunately, situations like this have arisen thanks to Columbine. The schools mandated that any child had to report if someone had a weapon or was threatening anyone.
Personally, it stinks, but the times they are a changin. Try looking at it from their perspective.
If you want to avoid these things, homeschool. It's the only way.
Luis...fue una broma de mi parte...... ja,ja,ja.
Luis...fue una broma de mi parte...... ja,ja,ja.
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