'Passion' Needs Postscript

ADL ^ | Feb 3rd 2004 | By Abraham H. Foxman and Rabbi Granatoor

[Dataman]

I know the answer. Do you say "six million ?"

Yes, I will say 6 million. If you are looking for a Jew-hater or a holocaust denier you have not found one.

I'll take that as a statement you do not think a Catholic baptism makes a person a christian, in which case by that definition Adolph was a pagan/heathen/gentile [whatever term you prefer for accuracy].

Yes, that is correct. If infant baptism alone makes one a Christian, then circumcision alone makes one a Jew.

[af_vet_1981]

You are trying to make a connection between Christianity and Nazism.

No, I think your emotions are getting the better of you and you are jumping to conclusions that I am not proposing. I am interested in the people who committed the atrocities, much as the movie is interested in the people who betrayed Yeshua. What religion did the people who committed the atrocities belong to, not according to you, but according to themselves or conventions at the time ?

If you say pagan simply because they were ungodly atrocities then we lose some historical accuracy. If you contend that the Holocaust was carried out by pagans, was the Inquisition also carried out by pagans, the Crusades ?

I can live with whatever definition you wish to use as long as it is consistent.

I am perfectly willing to accept the truth that some Jews were responsible for the betrayal and death of Yeshua of Nazareth. They were either willingly involved or did nothing to stop it. I hold the Romans primarily responsible for the deed but the Jews should have protected him and never delivered him to the Gentiles.

[af_vet_1981]

Yes, that is correct. If infant baptism alone makes one a Christian, then circumcision alone makes one a Jew.

Okay, that was not so hard. Six million it was then.

The commonly accepted definition of a Jew is someone born of a Jewish mother or anyone who converts. As for me, I think anyone persecuted as a Jew is good enough to be a Jew.

[missyme]

Read Post#97...

If you were looking for Jesus he would come, if your not looking for Jesus he won't. Reading the Old Testament Scriptures is what makes sense when you read the New Testament Scriptures.

I know your a Jewish un-beleiver. G-d gave us all free will. All I can say read the scriptures GOSPELS intently pray about it. Ask and Pray to G-d to reveal to you if Jesus is the Promised Messiah, you don't have to ask any body but G-d let him be your answer, and if you do that sincerely, G-d will show you and tell you because G-d does not lie to us..

Is that a fair statement?

[Dataman]

I interpreted Missyme's comments to mean that she said that I was waiting for Satan. I responded in kind.

Sorry if you thought my remarks were directed toward you. I was making only a general statement.

I am not anti-Christian. I wish far more nominal Christians were religious.

I wish so too. Jesus never taught against "the Jews" although he condemned the leadership of that time. From the cross he forgave those who crucified him which means that if indeed "the Jews" should be blamed for his death, then Jesus forgave them when he said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." True Christians do not hold Jews responsible for Christ's death.

As for a breakdown of dialogue, that is exactly what Foxman wants.

Yes it is what he wants. That's what makes HIM sanctimonious.

[missyme]

Your funny...I mean that in a good way :-)

[af_vet_1981]

However, if destructive foreign influences prevent the Messiah from coming, then how can you claim that Jesus was the Messiah? Occupied Israel was full of Hellenizers and collaborators.

Astute point

Ungodliness in Jacob will not prevent the coming (or return if you will) of the Messiah.

[af_vet_1981]

If you are looking for a Jew-hater or a holocaust denier you have not found one.

Good. I don't want to find one. Why would I wish that on myself or anyone else ? I wish there were none of them.

[Beck_isright]

"I'm really troubled by movies about the Civil War that portray the South as racist, slave-owning rebels, intent on waging a destructive war in order to protect their financial interests."

I'm really troubled that war movies showing Germans to be war mongers and murderers do not have postcripts explaining that the two World Wars and indescritions committed by the East German secret police were just innocent historical "boo-boos."

[missyme]

But isn't it funny no matter how much we all have been getting into heated typing posts regarding The Bible and G-d, I beleive G-d sees our hearts and see that we love him and want to worship him and somehow he responds to us so that we can diagree, learn and accept each other...

If anyone should learn from us it should be the MUSLIM world but I don't know if we will be able to see that in our lifetime...

[af_vet_1981]

I'm really troubled that war movies showing Germans to be war mongers and murderers do not have postcripts explaining that the two World Wars and indescritions committed by the East German secret police were just innocent historical "boo-boos."

Okay Dataman, here is your chance to shine.

I'll let you handle this one.

[Dataman]

If you contend that the Holocaust was carried out by pagans, was the Inquisition also carried out by pagans, the Crusades ?

I appreciate your interest in accuracy. The inquisition was carried out by some Spanish Jesuits. If the Jesuits were circumcised, we cannot say they were Jews. (If a Nazi or two was baptized, we cannot say they were Christians.)The Jesuits were not bent on the destruction of Christianity. (Hitler was bent on the destruction of Christianity.) The Jesuits may have been born pagan but were acting as Jesuits. (Hitler may have been born into a "Christian" family but was acting as a pagan.)

This really isn't hard to understand.

No, I think your emotions are getting the better of you and you are jumping to conclusions that I am not proposing.

Your implications were clear. Perhaps you could explain the purpose of your questions if they were innocent?

[Beck_isright]

</sarcasm off....sheesh, chill gang

[af_vet_1981]

Perhaps you could explain the purpose of your questions if they were innocent?

I would like the context of the ADL's criticisms of the movie to be seen in the context of the systematic persecution for almost 17 centuries by people who thought of themselves as christian. The fears of the ADL are grounded in historical facts. They arise out of a paranoid, but real, threat to Jewish existence.

[af_vet_1981]

I used the same word twice in a sentence (context). I lose two points.

[missyme]

People are bad because there lost...Or there born Evil but it's hard to think that Dahmer, Hitler, Manson, Saddam and many other other notorius killers were once tiny babies that were sinless, that is where Original Sin I beleive is proven...

[madison10]

The fears of the ADL are grounded in historical facts. They arise out of a paranoid, but real, threat to Jewish existence.

That's the point..."historical fact." "Christians," I would hope, are not as narrow-minded as they once were in in thinking that Jews were totally responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. They were instruments, but not the cause. We are ALL the cause. As mentioned earlier: It was my hand on the hammer and my sin on His shoulders.

Foxman doesn't get it. Maybe he's just afraid Jews will go to the movie & get converted. Doubt it, but it's possible.

[missyme]

Good Point....

If Jews that go to see "The Passion of Christ" and come to the conclusin that they beleive Jesus is the Jewish Promised Messiah" they would have to endure persecution all over again from there fellow unbelieving Jews....

[Antoninus]

I have never been the slightest bit anti-Semitic. But it really irritates me when someone like Foxman starts telling which parts of the New Testament I can believe, and which I cannot.

Ditto here. The arrogance of these people is unbelievable! Their shrill and utterly unjustified attacks on this film are going to create a self-fulfilling prophecy of renewed antisemitism. It's forcing me to think that those Jews are viciously attacking The Passion are at heart anti-Christian and view ANY expression of devout Christian belief as a threat.

[sobieski]

The Nazis killed even more Christians than Jews. That's all we need to know about them. In fact, more Catholic Poles than Jewish Poles; more Christian Ukranians than Jewish Ukranians; more Orthodox Russian than Jewish Russians. Hitler hated the Jews -- and the Christians. Killed them b/c, like the Gypsies and Jews, he saw them as untermenschen.