Ask Benjamin Franklin.
Posted on 01/17/2023 8:36:27 AM PST by Kazan
America’s infatuation with Ukraine and Zelensky (the Cocaine Comedian) is starting to wane, but most politicians and the public continue to believe the lie that Ukraine is an innocent country being bludgeoned by a communist Russia ruled by a dictator. Oh yeah. Don’t forget. Russia is suffering massive military and economic losses and just can’t live without U.S. investment and Europe’s technology. It is all nonsense, but if you are living in the United States and try to have a reasoned discussion with the fan boys and girls cheering for Ukraine, you would find more success talking to a brick wall.
But cracks are starting to show. One of my brilliant readers sent me the link to Michael Brendan Dougherty‘s latest in the National Review (a conservative icon in the magazine world), What Have We Bargained for in Ukraine? I encourage you to read the entire piece. More importantly, read the comments. That will give you some insight into the insanity that still reigns with regards to sending billions of dollars in money and materiel to Ukraine.
Here are the salient portions of the piece:
My friend and colleague Matthew Continetti writes that “securing America’s position and freedom’s future without direct intervention and for a rounding error in the federal budget is a strategic bargain. Ukraine needs more, not less, U.S. aid, and it needs it now.” In Commentary in November, Noah Rothman wrote that “Kyiv’s victories are our victories, too, insofar as they advance a core American national interest: preserving the stable European covenant that has blessed Western powers with the longest, most durable peace on the Continent in the modern age.”
This view holds that for pennies on the dollar, the U.S. has been able to preserve a democracy threatened by an authoritarian regime, cripple a rival military, strengthen the NATO alliance, prevent Vladimir Putin from an inevitable invasion of NATO territory, and scare off Xi Jinping from ever messing with Taiwan. . . .
Except, none of this is quite true. Crippling a rival military is only worthwhile when you have a strategic reason for doing so, and we conspicuously lack one. The NATO alliance’s duties have been radically expanded with no radical expansion in the share of the alliance’s burdens shouldered by Europe. Ukraine’s ultra-nationalist project is at odds with the democratic and liberal-internationalist values that are used to sell the conflict abroad. The conflict’s financial and moral costs to the U.S. have been growing for nearly a decade, and taking on Ukraine as a permanent dependent will grow them even more. The arc of the conflict is just as likely to encourage as to discourage Xi in his pursuit of Taiwan, given the ways in which our enmeshment in Europe will deplete our attention, resources, and will to be the world’s cop. And finally, no conflict in this blood-stained area of the globe is a mom-and-pop bingo game in which you can cash out your modest investments at any time; Vladimir Putin and Russia have a say in how this ends.
There you have it. A prominent conservative writer who was a strong supporter of Ukraine (and still insists that Putin is some sort of Darth Vader who enjoys borscht) is conceding that America’s strategy is based on a lie.
Over at Neo-Con central — i.e., the Institute for the Study of War — the stenographers masquerading as analysts grudgingly concede that Russia captured Soledar, but then proceeds to focus on their own fantastical speculation that there is political strife in Russia surrounding the Wagner Group’s success in the battle for Soledar. They write nothing about the strategic significance of the fall of Soledar, nothing about the growing Russian pressure on Bakhmut to the south of Soledar and nothing about Ukraine’s catastrophic casualties. It is genuinely bizarre.
“But there is only proof of that one..if Russia were sending them, would there not be evidence of more?”
Well, the “separatists” certainly had more than one Buk system in their possession. I just cite this example specifically because as it was used to down an international flight, there was an international investigation by civil aviation authorities. So it is quite beyond any reasonable doubt that the “separatists” shot it down with a Russian-sourced anti-aircraft system.
We could very well wonder where they got troop carriers, artillery systems, main battle tanks, etc, that they were obviously not just picking up from the local arms dealer. But it’s nearly impossible for Russian apologists to deny the case of the Buk system since there is just far too much evidence in this case.
Losing 1900 firearms (small arms) is a little bit different than losing a self-propelled anti-aircraft missile system.
We fomented a revolution, setoff a civil war, funded and trained neo-Nazis all so the Bidens, George Soros and Clintons could rake in the cash.
“was formally incorporated into the National Guard on 11 November 2014.”
The complete statement: The unit was founded in May 2014 as a volunteer paramilitary militia under the command of Andriy Biletsky to fight pro-Russian forces in the Donbas War, and was formally incorporated into the National Guard on 11 November 2014.
Furthermore, the Azon fighters in eastern Ukraine were being trained by some group either domestic or foreign, and they were heavily armed.
You can keep bringing up your BS, but that is all it really is. I also seriously doubt that the bringing down of the passenger plane was an intended act. It was a pre-emptive strike because they didn't know who it was.
But the reality stands that a kinetic war could have been averted. No Ukraine land mass taken, and most importantly no blood shed, as well as, no infrastructure demolished.
But that was not what was wanted, and that can not be denied.
But you conveniently avoid that reality for some reason.
Why is that? Was it because you wanted the kinetic war, along with the death & the destruction?
“They can call them separatists, but they were not separating from Ukraine at all.”
Except they issued declarations of independence. That’s a matter of fact, not a matter of opinion up for debate.
“The complete statement”
Which still confirms that I was correct that Azov was not part of the Ukrainian national guard at the time, unlike what you claimed.
“they were heavily armed”
Yet not armed with aircraft. And Russia still provided the “separatists” with anti-aircraft weapons, which would be quite useless if Russia was simply arming them to defend against Azov.
“I also seriously doubt that the bringing down of the passenger plane was an intended act.”
Again, that’s completely immaterial. All that matters is they shot it down, with an anti-aircraft system provided by Russia, which disproves the notion that Russia was simply arming these groups for self defense against the Azov paramilitaries they were fighting at the time. They were being armed for direct conflict with the Ukrainian regular army. That means Russia was fomenting a revolution in a foreign country, which proves the usual Russian apologist narrative about the origin of the Ukraine conflict is nonsensical.
Ok well. You make good points. I just don’t care anymore.
I just retired and we are parading around all stuffed up and full of ourselves, living as if we ruled the world.
In the meantime much of the world is backing Putin in spirit
and conspiring to dedollarize into the coming multipolar empire with China at the lead.
I keep forgetting the big picture here on fr, getting pulled into these little trivial issues.
Come tell me what our future holds from your perspective.
https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/4123823/posts
Well, thank you! And a blessed 2023 to you and yours. :)
No, they didn't. They only called for autonomy at that point in time, period.
Which still confirms that I was correct that Azov was not part of the Ukrainian national guard at the time, unlike what you claimed.
But neither were they restrained from committing their terroristic attacks upon Ukrainian citizens. But in a short period of time they were rewarded for their terroristic acts upon Ukraine citizens by being made legitimate members of the Ukraine National Guard against Ukrainian citizens. That's the inconvenient fact you dance around, because it proves that they acted without fear of recrimination.
Yet not armed with aircraft. And Russia still provided the “separatists” with anti-aircraft weapons, which would be quite useless if Russia was simply arming them to defend against Azov.
But Ukraine military has airplanes don't they. If you were constantly under attack, what's to prevent you from believing that the military hadn't decided to step up the terrorism against Ukraine citizens. That's another thing you always fail to mention, that they were Ukraine citizens.
Again, that’s completely immaterial. All that matters is they shot it down, with an anti-aircraft system provided by Russia, which disproves the notion that Russia was simply arming these groups for self defense against the Azov paramilitaries they were fighting at the time. They were being armed for direct conflict with the Ukrainian regular army. That means Russia was fomenting a revolution in a foreign country, which proves the usual Russian apologist narrative about the origin of the Ukraine conflict is nonsensical.
Oh contraire, it is material despite your claims that it isn't. Unless it can be proven that they knowingly targeted a passenger plane, it's not a war crime. It's a fog of war situation, and they were at war.
But you are still avoiding the impossible fact to overcome, that a peaceful solution to avoid a kinetic war war not what was wanted, even though it was available.
Again, why are you ignoring the obvious elephant present in the discussion?
Bkmk
Excellent timing, Galt! Rattler appeared mere seconds later.
;^)
“No, they didn’t. They only called for autonomy at that point in time, period.”
Now you’re just trying to rewrite history. But unfortunately for you, we live in the information age, so proof that they did in fact issue declarations of independence from Ukraine is just seconds away for anyone interested in finding out who is telling the truth here:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2014/5/12/ukraine-separatists-declare-independence
“But Ukraine military has airplanes don’t they.”
Exactly my point. The Ukrainian military is who Russia was arming the separatists to fight, not simply the Azov paramilitaries as you tried to claim. And arming a group of separatists to fight their own government’s army is fomenting a revolution in a foreign country. Thanks for proving my point.
“Oh contraire, it is material despite your claims that it isn’t. Unless it can be proven that they knowingly targeted a passenger plane, it’s not a war crime.”
That MIGHT be material if I was claiming they committed a war crime, but I didn’t claim that, so yes, it’s immaterial. All I have claimed is that they shot down the plane with a missile system provided to them by Russia, which you’ve already conceded. Nothing else really matters at this point, since you’ve basically conceded every point of my argument to me, with the exception that you for some reason seem to think you can deny that they issued declarations of independence despite the fact that it’s documented and they made press releases about it.
“Again, why are you ignoring the obvious elephant present in the discussion?”
As I’ve already told you, I ignore what is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I understand you would like to steer the conversation to some other topic, but I have no interest in that and have no obligation to indulge you in that.
Rattler reminnds me of Texas Gator.
One defends EVs with every breath against the common assessment of forum participants.
The other does likewise cheerleading $billions in cash and resources for involvement in a war where we have little national interest.
I’m leaving off the table the personal/corporate/government enrichment in both for dealmaking, both legal and illegal.
What is it with the FR reptiles? 😏
September 16, 2014 (Date Ukraine Parliament granted autonomy) While some of the fighters may have pushed to become separate from Ukraine, the majority did not want to become part of Russia again. They wished to co-exist as the Ukrainians that they were. The Ukraine Parliament did not grant them separation, they granted them autonomy. The Donbas region voted for autonomy and accepted the autonomous proposal even though under the legislation, rebel-held parts of Ukraine's eastern Donetsk and Luhansk regions will be granted a "special status," giving them broader autonomy for only a temporary three-year period.
They wanted nothing more than to stop the terroristic attacks that they were facing.
While words have meaning, by now you should know that the press, including the VOA (Voice Of America), will use the language that is the most disparaging towards their enemy at the moment, which was Russia. But only because the Democrats were saying that Russia was the enemy.
After all, if you know that the 2020 election was stolen. you are considered and have been publicly labeled a domestic terrorist. If you are a parent that has fought against sexual indoctrination of your child, you are also labeled as are the "election deniers", dangerous domestic terrorists.
Yet, you support what these people have done. Are you just a shill here pretending to be a conservative who is concerned about their country, but in reality couldn't care less about this county?
Exactly my point. The Ukrainian military is who Russia was arming the separatists to fight, not simply the Azov paramilitaries as you tried to claim. And arming a group of separatists to fight their own government’s army is fomenting a revolution in a foreign country. Thanks for proving my point.
You keep repeating the same old BS, while ignoring the fact that Ukraine was allowing the Azov fighters to have free run without any concern that they would pay for their terroristic acts. If our government started doing the same, wouldn't you arm yourself as strongly as you possibly could? Most people I know would do just that.
As I’ve already told you, I ignore what is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I understand you would like to steer the conversation to some other topic, but I have no interest in that and have no obligation to indulge you in that.
Well, no that is the first time I had heard that with regards to a peaceful resolution that avoids the invasion and all that goes with it. That is the topic you moronic fool, or is it useful idiot. Either way the outcome is the same.
So, you really are nothing more than a scumbag, who wanted this proxy war where Ukraine becomes the battlefield, and the Ukrainian people become the fodder. You have also exposed yourself as a very concerned person, because that also is a fraud.
End of discussion, for I have exposed that you are a neo-con scumbag.
Ask Benjamin Franklin.
Meanwhile, Zelensky has banned all opposition parties, all opposition media, shutdown and raided churches and imprisoned opposition leaders. All that is very consistent with communism or Nazism, which is the preferred form of tyranny in Ukraine.
You're grossly ignorant of modern-day Russia.
Don't talk about respect when you're throwing out those kind of insults.
That fact is you're on the same side in this war as the Biden regime, the corrupt CIA, neocons like John Bolton and Lindsey Graham and George Soros and the WEF crowd.
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