Posted on 05/19/2022 11:13:44 AM PDT by jeff_clark
Maybe so..but I think he realizes that the left has gone off the deep end.
That would be cool — systems to compete with Dominion.
I know of a system enhancement that can be implemented very easily from a technical point of view. Here it is:
The Dominion and other ballots print a number in the upper left hand corner of the ballot. In Georgia this contains the number for the specific district and a unique number indicating the specific form presented to the voters which will vary by precinct. So this might read 2A-256, meaning District 2A and form 256.
What I propose is adding an alpha-numeric number after these other numbers such as DHF-673 — that is a unique identifier in the precinct and something the voter can easily remember or jot down.
The purpose of that number is — after the election — for the voter to easily scan the image of the ballots online (since these in Georgia become public records) and find the ballot with the identifier DHF-673.
This, then, becomes a way for a voter to personally check to make sure HIS VOTE WAS COUNTED among the final ballots tabulated.
And if enough people are trained to check for this number, it becomes an easy way to frustrate fraud and give voters confidence that their vote counted.
FReepers, what do you think of this proposal. Does it have any merit?
Your proposal allows a valid voter a way to check his valid vote.
The issue is invalid voters (via mail-in ballots) and invalid votes (by people who didn’t cast them / OR / mail-in votes that are switched or ‘lost’.). Your system doesn’t impact those.
Your proposal allows a valid voter a way to check his valid vote.
The issue is invalid voters (via mail-in ballots) and invalid votes (by people who didn’t cast them / OR / mail-in votes that are switched or ‘lost’.). Your system doesn’t impact those.
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That’s true, Laz. My proposal doesn’t solve the full voting integrity problem, just a portion of it.
A VALID mail-in or absentee vote can be required to post the ID code of trailing numbers. In which case, before the vote is mailed in, the legal voter can jot that number down or take a picture of the full ballot for later reference.
Another area of concern is the creeping Dominion-driven alteration of legal ballots in a precinct or district where the idea is switch a small number votes in each precinct to have a big impact state-wide.
Since that fraud tampers with legal votes, it can be verified, say, by Trump voters who examine their ballot on-line and notice their vote was switched to Bidung.
Bottom line, I think the virtue here is that it’s a meaningful control on certain kinds of voting fraud — and it costs relatively nothing to implement because the voter does the work after the votes are published online.
It could also be enhanced by allowing voters to take a mobile camera shot of their ballot (and the ballot ID) before it goes into the counting machine.
A side benefit: getting voters INVOLVED in monitoring their own votes is an opportunity to educate them on SOME — not all — of the ways that fraud enters the voting system.
* * *
Hey GOPJ, you’ve got experience in polling watching. What’s your assessment of this idea I explained earlier in this thread? Cheers.
https://freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/4064629/posts?page=22#22
I’ve been in charge of running elections in provinces/states/counties (whatever they were called) in other countries. Ballots were printed by a company that prints banknotes for countries that don’t print their own with the same security features as banknotes to prevent counterfeiting of ballots.
Each ballot had a unique serial number, and they were shipped, each packet of ballots under seal, with the serial numbers in order. Very early in the morning, before polls opened, I had to unseal the packets in the presence of the electoral team and any party agents or poll watchers present. Then we all signed a document attesting the seals had been intact and the packets unsealed as they watched.
Next, the electoral team and I had to count and recount all the ballots and make sure the serial numbers were all in order with no gaps or duplicates, with the agents and watchers observing. I noted the number of ballots, beginning and ending serial numbers, gaps or duplicates if any, and again we all signed that document.
Each voter had to present valid voter ID (with photo and fingerprint), fill out the voter form with fingerprint, and dip right forefinger into special invisible ink that only shows up under a blacklight and does not wash off, does not wear off for two weeks (yes, we had fun testing it out well before the election). Before this, of course, the forefinger was examined under blacklight to ensure the person had not already voted elsewhere.
Everything was observed by agents/watchers of course as voters were processed, went to booths to mark their ballots in privacy, and then place them in the ballot box in view of all.
At close of polling, I sealed the ballot box(es) with these funky seals similar to padlocks which had unique numbers. We counted unused ballots and any spoiled ballots, (voter goofed, exchanged messed-up ballot for a fresh one) placed these in special boxes that were likewise sealed.
I filled out a document noting the number of unused ballots with beginning and ending serial numbers and the number of spoiled ballots with each serial number, and the number of filled ballots in each ballot box (actual votes). All observers present had to sign that document, too.
I had to accompany the boxes to the counting headquarters, never letting them out of my sight, and there the serial numbers of the box seals were recorded, etc., all procedures and the actual counting of the votes conducted in full view of observers, etc.
All through the process, the observers had the right to object. I never had an objection, but if I had, whether or not I overruled the objection, I would have had to fill out a special form, etc., and this would be part of the record.
This worked very well for in-person voting. Observers (party agents, poll watchers, etc) were trained ahead of time and were allowed to actually see everything at a close enough distance, from unsealing the fresh ballots before polls opened to sealing the counted ballots in boxes at close of counting. Of course they were not allowed to intimidate or harass voters or polling staff (and none tried). During the counting, any questionable ballots had to be shown to a higher election official for a ruling, with observers invited to also examine the ballots if they wished.
I don’t know how fraud can be prevented when it comes to mail-in voting and those drop boxes. There are too many opportunities along the way for cheating. Those ballot harvesters, volunteers “helping” voters, etc., are especially problematic. Frankly, I think we should go back to the way it was: in-person voting only, with absentee ballots for military and those who *cannot* vote in person (overseas, have surgery scheduled, have to be out of town on election day, etc.).
Ping, CatHerd. Thanks for taking the time to explain this ballot process in-depth. Actually the process you explained kind of mimics the Herding of Cats — people, especially the con artist types — like to stray and must be controlled with a thorough process like this.
Having voted a few days ago on the Dominion system here in Georgia, the large ballot screens and operation of the systems LOOKS impressive. That’s the catch. Living in a digital age, we can easily be fooled by slick screens and interfaces.
But I like the process you describe better. And voting on a serialized PAPER certificate ballot is an impressive piece of fraud-fighting technology in itself.
It also reinforces the law that says We-the-People OWN our own government, and not some bureaucrat in Fulton County stuffing ballots in machines at 2 o’clock in the morning.
How about we make vote fraud in any form a Capitol offense?
Get caught, you die.
L
Aw, thanks! That’s why I chose this username (jobs like herding cats). Unfortunately, I keep getting accused of being a “cat lady” or called something that rhymes with “herd” which can be found in a cat box.
Yes, I’m a big fan of paper ballots. Georgia used to have them. At least I know they did some 20 years ago.
Certificate-type ballots with security features like banknotes (special paper with threads embedded, watermarks, etc) prevent stuffing with fake ballots. (I think they also emphasize how precious and important each vote is and how it deserves to be handled and counted with great respect and care.) Ditto the serial numbers. In one country, the serial numbers probably prevented a fraud.
Hmm. How to explain? Imagine Ukraine had implemented the Minsk Agreement, and before the breakaway areas of Donetsk and Luhansk were finally reintegrated into Ukraine, there was an election. In the breakaway area of each oblast the election was run by OSCE, and in the areas of those oblasts still under Ukrainian government control, the Ukrainian government ran it — with the combined ballots counted on the Ukrainian side after counted ballots from the OSCE side were added, with international observers watching and examining all documents. This was a similar situation.
My main job there was not electoral, but I was assigned to head up a precinct (got to wear different hats in my job, which I loved). The local electoral staff had been trained by some international outfit (not IFES, which is excellent), but not very well. They were rolling their eyes and sighing when I had them start on counting and recounting the fresh ballots (received from the government side) in the early morning hours and making sure the serial numbers were all in order. Oh, how tedious and boring! — until I found a fat gap in my stack.
When I alerted the team about it, they still had those bored expressions. I explained why it was so important, that if we had not caught it, the stinkers on the other side of the border could “find” and mix in those missing ballots, filled out with their favored candidates, and cheat. That got them all excited and revved up. We found two more gaps. The stinkers were foiled. Ha. The team was *on* and avidly performed all those boring and tedious tasks we had to do.
Another good thing about paper ballots is they can be sealed up in ballot boxes and stored in a secure location for a recount if needed.
You do get questionable ballots. In the elections I was involved in, technically, any ballot not filled in as directed in the instructions was a “questioned ballot” requiring the attention of a higher ranking election official present at the count. Often, it was simple: the voter circled the name of the candidate instead of marking an X on the box. Intent was clear. Some ballots, you can’t tell who in the world that person meant to vote for — just stray marks near the top edge of the paper way away from where candidates’ names are listed.
Observers were invited to examine any questioned ballots as they were ruled on and had the right to object if they disagreed with the ruling. If intent was clear, the ballot was counted for that candidate. If ruled unclear, blank, or whacky, it was added to the “questioned ballot” pile and not counted. At the close of counting, the questioned ballots were sealed in a separate packet and then sealed in a ballot box. If an observer had objected to the ruling, the questioned ballot was sealed in yet another envelope and sent up the line to the top level for a final ruling.
We all did our level best to figure out the intent of the voter and count the vote if we could. We never threw them into the “questionable” pile on a technicality.
But hey, it beats dangling chads!
I'm just waiting for the Left to start trading in their Teslas because "Elon man bad".
YES, that’s the most effective method! The Saudi’s chop off the hand of a thieves. That works too.
When we moved to Georgia we had 5 cats in the household. But six years later, they steadily passed away. Fortunately we lived in a quiet neighborhood and the cats could roam free outside and enjoy their senior years.
I find this topic fascinating. And I can see how the poll workers would get excited when they learned how tricks could be pulled on them through gaps in the serial numbers.
I wonder if anyone has written a good book that explains voting fraud prevention in a way that your average citizen can easily grasp. I think you could write such a book.
Thanks poconopundit.
CatHerd is right on this... other countries do better with protecting the sanctity of the vote. Shame on us.
Our system of voting makes the case political parties are honorable and no one would ever cheat. That's nuts.
Keeping our country free matters.
A computerized system of checking our votes in a possibility - but people who are 'voted' by scammers would be unlikely to check their votes since in their minds - they didn't vote. That said, it would intimidate people who do fraud. You're on the right track...
Another thought occurs from CatHerd's remarks:
That strikes home. We need to return REVERENCE to the voting process.
Today, the emphasis is on voting EFFICIENCY with these slick Dominion screens. The connotation is that voting is like going to a CONVENIENCE STORE and swiping your card.
Then afterward the poll worker gives you a meaningless sticker with a Georgia Peach on it saying, "I voted today" with zero verification that MY VOTE actually COUNTED. It's like, "Don't forget to take your receipt and those valuable discount coupons".
Yeah sure, hundreds of millions of dollars are being spent in Georgia for machines and salaries to guarantee our sacred right to vote and to throw out the Brian Kemp frauds on the ballot. And all you're giving is an ugly stupid sticker?
Seven years ago, my wife took her examination to become a U.S. citizen. And sure enough, she was given a certificate. And it was a point of pride at the time.
And then these criminal MULES are tailing back to Stacey Abrams' office to get their paycheck for dumping all those illegal ballots.
I do love cats and am caring for my late Dad’s elderly cat. It sounds like you gave your kitties very happy lives!
Oh, I had some other exciting times. Not the most dramatic one by far, but in one case a remote polling station was mined by bad guys overnight. What to do? There was a palm grove with evenly spaced trees handy, so I told the villagers to go get their straw sleeping mats and I got my yellow rope and my trusty hatchet off our boat and we constructed private voting booths in the palm grove near the beach by winding the rope through the trees in box-like fashion and hanging the mats from the rope. The electoral team and the voters were so thrilled we didn’t let the bad guys win! It was a happy day for them and is a happy memory for me.
I wonder, too, if anyone has written such a book. Thank you for your kindness, but I cannot write such a book. I am not an expert on election fraud in all its forms and features. I know zip about voting machines, for example. All the elections I had anything to do with had paper ballots only, counted by human beings while being observed closely by other human beings.
I am something of an expert on how to properly run elections like the ones I supervised or was involved in running (and wrote a handbook that was used in future elections in several countries), but the electoral law and procedures were designed by real world-class experienced experts, not me.
All required photo voter ID and secure paper ballots, verified chain of custody of all ballots, transparency, open to scrutiny by observers from political parties, poll watchers, etc. throughout the entire process and so on. And, of course, careful training and supevision of electoral teams.
In many ways, I suppose it was easier in that everything was closely supervised by highly-trained international professional staff dedicated to doing a great job and running a truly fair and free election and without any dog in the fight. We simply wanted the elections to be truly free and fair with zero fraud or irregularities. We cared deeply that votes were protected and correctly counted, and believed it was up to the people to choose their new leaders, their country, not ours.
By the way, voter turnout in that country where we made the crazy voting booths in the palms was around 97% (!) of registered voters. The people were so happy to be able to vote after decades of cruel commie dictatorship. It was a huge deal to them and amazing to watch. I was so Blessed to be part of it. We take so much for granted here.
In closIng, I can say this. I truly think secure paper ballots are the way to go, provided all the procedures and safeguards I outlined are rigorously followed. Even if machines or computers could be guaranteed perfect, hack-free and fraud-free. Why? Voter confidence.
There are sealed physical ballots that can be examined at a later date should any questions arise. There is total transparency, as observers from all parties and poll watchers are allowed to closely observe and monitor every step of the process with right of objection (but not disruption or intimidation). Accompanying physical documents can be examined, chain of custody of all ballots and documents can be verified, etc.
We human beings simply trust physical objects we can see and touch (paper ballots) more than we do taking some computer guy’s word for it. Verification by multiple witnesses of varying political persuations (or none at all) is also a plus for trust. The ability to go back and study sealed and secured ballot boxes of counted and uncounted ba!lots and accompanying documents if needed, question witnesses, etc. We are physical beings not digital avatars, and we trust physical evidence far more than digital (perhaps rightly so).
Sorry, trees, but we need you for this far more than for all the other silly things we grind you up for.
Back to the book: electoral law and proper procedure is exceedingly tedious and boring, as I’m sure you’ve guessed. Boring to implement, even more boring to read about. In certain countries, where the people have not been able to participate in a truly free and fair election within living memory, it can be exhilarating to implement even as you meticulously follow all the proper tedious procedures.
Here, not so much. It’s all just tedious and boring. Hardly clickbait. Even here on FR, most people are more interested in scaring themselves and each other with the latest vaccine conspiracy theory or monkeypox conspiracy theory or whatever conspiracy theory they find scariest at the moment. Few really care about the truly important things, real problems we might actually be able to do something about, those that require more than a tweet’s worth of thought or effort, or stepping outside their current obsession.
FR sure has changed over the past two decades. Sadly. I am encouraged there are still some practical-minded dedicated conservatives like you here! Also, I must say, it’s quite something to meet someone here who is interested in all this boring and tedious electoral stuff!
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