Yeh, yeh here we go again knife vs gun fight debate. Posted on 10/27/2017 11:06:45 AM PDT by w1n1
Yeh, yeh here we go again knife vs gun fight debate.
For those that don't know the term "21 foot rule". It is well known (also called Tueller Drill) within the law enforcement and personal defense circle. This defensive drill was patterned after a Salt Lake City Police Sergeant Dennis Tueller experimentation.
The Tueller drill is all about “reactionary gap” through training. Other trainers have come up with the distances associated it to the Tueller drill. This experimentation, determined that the average healthy adult male can cover a distance of seven yards (21 feet) in about 1.5 seconds.
The significance of the time factor is based on the reasonable standard that a person who’s trained in proper pistolcraft (gun fighting) should be able to draw a handgun and place two centered hits on a life-size silhouette at seven yards in about 1.5 seconds.
Its important to point out that both the distance of 21 feet and the time factor as addressed in Tueller’s drill, were both approximations based on training experience is all.
Training Scar
According to Force Science Research Center the old way of training was to stop the scenario when the defender gets off the first shot at the perpetrator. This type of training and mentality of “bang you’re dead” leads to a false sense of safety, this is a “training scar“. A training scar is a negative trait that’s come as a result of bad training practices.
Another training scar that is common in shooting is how we are all conditioned to stand on the firing line and shoot at a static target. For this reason, most Law Enforcement Officers and civilian gun owners step in concrete the minute their gun leaves the holster. Safety was the primary motive to reinforce training with firearm. If there were any movement implemented into the training. It was limited to movements to perpendicular or lateral movements in relations to the target.
Alternative Solutions
Force Science Research Center provides an alternative way is to turn the “Tueller concept” into an actual drill as a force on force exercise. Read the rest and see the 21 foot rule video here.
This group - Action Shooting International is a less formal move and shoot thing than the other ones that are more competitive. I went as a newbie and they were very helpful and low-key.
I think they are mainly in the Pacific Northwest, but they are growing. Some really good shooters, some rank beginners and everyone in between.
While it was my first time I only missed one shot out of 50 - although my time wasn’t the best. (But I wasn’t last either!) I’m more of a shotgun guy, but I should do these ASI things more - it was good practice.
I think it was $20 or so for 50 shots, and waiting for the others on the course it took 2-3 hours (in the rain). Plus ammo. Air-soft would be cheaper of course! I did paint-ball once, those things hurt. It sure brought home that it would suck to be in a real firefight with a bunch of bad guys!
Just get yer thread protector for s suppressed pistol cerakoated bright neon safety orange like your liberal toy guns are marked..... that millisecond WTF brain fart of the attacker will make you the old lady version of Jerry Mikulec . Thank you liberal polidiots for confusing your voters errr criminals so we have better odds in such attacks ......
Every situation develops differently and, therefore, every situation requires a different solution. If “shoot” is your default solution, you may find yourself sitting in a prison cell. I keep the 21 foot rule in mind as the situation develops. I know what 21 feet means but, as a civilian, kill is not my default solution. If they enter the 21 foot circle running at me as fast as they can with a shiny knife gleaming in their hand, there’s not a lot of thinking that needs to be done but I have yet to have a situation develop like that. If you’re being ambushed, they may be within 3 feet of you before you even realize that there is a situation. That’s why I believe situational awareness is what saves the day and the 21 foot rule is one aspect of that situational awareness.
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That’s FUNNY!!!!!!!
Old Ladies Rule!!
Well, now, that may be the case but I wonder how many men would be able to keep going getting shot by the granny in post 9?
Clearly there are better places to aim than the heart to stop a guy.
So waiting until we know the facts and sticking with the *innocent until proved guilty* concept our justice system is SUPPOSED to be based on is now *jackboot licking*?
I suppose the fact that there are real human being wearing those uniforms has escaped your attention in your LE hatred.
Just make it enough feet to reach a bed in a bedroom from the comfort of a SUV cruiser in the street. And make sure that it’s clear that a knife need not be involved. Then, we’ll work on adjusting policy to work with large motor home cruisers for ample space to draw from a prone, laying on back position. ...will snack table next to the automatically adjustable, king size motor home bed...and big screen TV. ...and mount for the machine gun, and computer operated machine gun fire control.
There...yes, enough distance to reach from the street to the bed in the suspected perp’s bedroom.
Paradigm makes a shotgun choke called the “gator” ..... a new design based on the old “duckbill” that was used in vietnam ........ works great with number 4 or 00 buck on any shotgun that is threaded for chokes. This, on a Serbu 12ga Shorty, makes a great lap gun in carjacker urban jungles.
http://www.paradigmsrp.com/gator-shotgun-spreader/
Train yourself to shoot while maneuvering. It’s not that hard. It’s hard to find a place that will let you train that way. Sometimes you gotta move.
An agent of the state, with lethal force that I as a citizen am not allowed to have.
*I* am the one that gets the benefit of the doubt, as are you.
Those ‘real human beings’ at least around here, shoot mentally disturbed people with sticks and kids with BB guns. And dogs. And get off.
If a ‘civilian’ is shot there had BETTER be, and immediately made available, clear camera footage showing that the LOE had NO OTHER option. Otherwise we ‘civilians’ are the ones that pay the price in lawsuits and property destroyed.
The news cycle, and the public’s NEED and RIGHT to know are now, in the 21st century, measured in hours and minutes.
I did USPSA in the 80s before raceguns ruined it. Then I did IDPA when it first got started. Much better than IPSC/USPSA but still can’t offer the freedom to let people solve problems on the move while shooting. Airsoft lets people do the force-on-force training that creates a gunfighter mentality.
I’ll check ASI out though. I’m in Florida so the Pacific NW is a long ways off.
More sincerely, I’m getting old. But too many people of all kinds are getting into terrible physical shape. It’s sad to see them slow down and die so young from so many diseases. It’s also especially hard for police, who often work odd hours, lack sleep and are stuck too many hours in cruisers. Very difficult that way, to motivate oneself to get in shape after a shift (too drowsy).
So PT (physical training) is needed (even for old folks). We’re much more likely to croak early from a disease or other medical condition than from being shot, and that includes police.
Listen to the man. He lived to be 96.
Jack LaLanne
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_lalane
Especially an Amish dude. They scatter like cockroaches at the sight.
When I might be in a desperate situation once in a lifetime, I wonder what is the chance I can hit the assailant at 21 feet or less? I can imagine myself hitting walls, windows, or God forbid, innocent people (tunnel vision). I worry about emptying the magazine into the surrounding environment and still having him coming toward me.
I compare my skill level with my son. At 12.5 yards I can get all my shots into the numbered target rings and most in the black. My son who is a former Marine and serves as a federal policeman can hit an old propane canister every time at 60 yards.
The tactical course is a great idea. I have taken one. One take away from that was at 71 there are some physical body alignments I should and can never find myself in.
I see they have a group in Jacksonville, FL - an indoor range - I’m not sure how those are run. The match I went to was outside, with maybe a 40-foot wide area to work with, and targets at 180 degrees.
The horizontal pattern could be handy against multiple perps. I found that a rifled choke tube tends to spread 00 buck pretty good at closer distances, but of course it spreads vertically as well.
Hoe yer good
I’ve watched about 100 “armed robber gets shot” videos on Youtube from Active Self Protection and there might have been one where the perp did something other than bite dirt after a body mass shot.
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