Posted on 05/30/2015 1:13:28 PM PDT by ReformationFan
Is there nobody of any intellectual stature left in our English church, or the Roman church, to frame the argument against same-sex marriage?
I see. So now we have the result of the Irish referendum on gay marriage, and now we’ve heard the Roman Catholic Church’s chastened response, we shall have to rewrite Exodus 32, which (you may remember) reports Moses’ (and God’s) furious reaction to the nude dancing and heretical worship of Moloch in the form of a golden calf: the Sin of the Calf in the Hebrew literature. Moses had come down from Mount Sinai bringing God’s commandments written on two tablets of stone.
‘And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses’ anger waxed hot…
‘And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.’
Let me have a crack at the revised version right away:
‘And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the Irish referendum’s huge majority for gay marriage, and the dancing: and Moses’ alarm was palpable…
‘And he took a copy of the Pink Paper and, flourishing it, said, “We have to stop and have a reality check, not move into denial of the realities.
‘”I appreciate how these naked revellers feel on this day. That they feel this is something that is enriching the way they live. I think it is a social revolution.
‘”We need to find a new language to connect with a whole generation of young people,” the prophet concluded; then, casting off his garments, Moses said, “Hey, lead me to the coolest gay bar in the camp.”’
Don’t laugh. With a couple of adjustments for updated circumstances, I am quoting the Archbishop of Dublin, Dr Diarmuid Martin, almost verbatim. The archbishop was responding last Sunday to Irish people’s endorsement of gay marriage by a margin of almost two to one.
Even as a (gay) atheist, I wince to see the philosophical mess that religious conservatives are making of their case. Is there nobody of any intellectual stature left in our English church, or the Roman church, to frame the argument against Christianity’s slide into just going with the flow of social and cultural change? Time was — even in my time — when there were quiet, understated, sometimes quite severe men of the cloth, often wearing bifocal spectacles, who could show us moral relativists a decent fight in that eternal debate. Now there’s only the emotional witness of the ranting evangelicals, most of them pretty dim. How I miss the fine minds of bishops like Joseph Butler, who remarked drily to John Wesley: ‘Sir, the pretending to extraordinary revelations, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, is an horrid thing, a very horrid thing.’
So, wearily and with a reluctance born of not even supporting the argument’s conclusion, let me restate the conservative Catholic’s only proper response to news such as that from Dublin last weekend. It is that 62 per cent in a referendum does not cause a sin in the eyes of God to cease to be a sin.
Can’t these Christians see that the moral basis of their faith cannot be sought in the pollsters’ arithmetic? What has the Irish referendum shown us? It is that a majority of people in the Republic of Ireland in 2015 do not agree with their church’s centuries-old doctrine that sexual relationships between two people of the same gender are a sin. Fine: we cannot doubt that finding. But can a preponderance of public opinion reverse the polarity between virtue and vice? Would it have occurred for a moment to Moses (let alone God) that he’d better defer to Moloch-worship because that’s what most of the Israelites wanted to do?
It must surely be implicit in the claim of any of the world’s great religions that on questions of morality, a majority may be wrong; but this should be vividly evident to Christians in particular: they need only consider the fate of their Messiah, and the persecution of adherents to the Early Church. ‘Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute you,’ says Paul. What does the Archbishop of Dublin now have to say to the 743,300 people who voted to uphold what their priests taught them was God’s will? These, and not the gays, are now the reviled ones. Popular revulsion cannot make them wrong.
But maybe I’m the fool, the one who’s missing something. Maybe there’s a deeper truth behind Dr Martin’s willingness to bend to prevailing mood, a flexibility that echoes Pope Francis’s openness to change. Could it be that the reason for both men’s apparent lack of embarrassment at these convenient shifts is that on some half-conscious level neither ever really believed that morality was absolute or objective anyway — or supposed we really thought they were serious?
Have some of us, in short, made the mistake of taking the church at its word? Was it always, anyway, about going with the flow? Was it always secretly about imposing the morals of the majority on the minority — so all that is necessary is to discover which way the preponderance falls?
In which case, when we run out of male celibates we shall adjust a previously absolute doctrine to a more relaxed view of priestly duty. When we run short of male priests altogether (celibate or not) we shall review the teaching on women priests. When we run short of parishioners on their first marriage, we’ll think again about divorce. And when we find we cannot stop heterosexuals using contraceptives or homosexuals coupling, God’s will on these wickednesses will be found to have been revised.
Abortion next, I suppose. Here, too, shall I live to hear the divine ahem? Silly me. And there I was thinking they meant it. As so often in my life, I have missed the big celestial wink.
Yup. Exposing the bodies of both parties. AIDS is only a one of probably thousands of ways to become ill. Most are shortlived and others like AIDS are a death sentence.
And we are all supposed to pretend that this is normal? A very strange world that we live in these days.
My theory is that secularists are counting on the fact that most Christians are afraid to discuss the dangers because it is, well, disgusting to them. Actually, I am betting that the average person would find it disgusted too if it was explained to them this way.
Two points here:
1. I don’t care what a person or persons does in the privacy of their bedrooms.
2. I do care about being forced to accept that sodomy is normal and no different than heterosexual sex and that homosexuals should have the right to be married.
I believe Exodus says the Egyptians gave them gold as they were departing.
Revelation 11:10 happening right before our eyes. The two witnesses testimony is dead, and the world is certainly rejoicing.
The kind of guys who don’t take kindly to whiners like many activists are describes a government run by Islamic Fundamentalists.
That’s the part I never understood one bit, why not do some other behavior that avoids the body’s actual waste disposal system? Surely at least some could be smart enough to act out their attraction in other ways?
Exodus 11.2 says the Israelites were told to borrow jewels of silver and jewels of gold from the Egyptians.
Exodus 11.2 says the Israelites were told to borrow jewels of silver and jewels of gold from the Egyptians.
If they were just wandering in the desert, I wonder what good it did them.
As RC Sproul once put it: We cannot determine what is right or wrong by counting noses.
Yep, a self-proclaimed homosexual atheist (in my opinion, no one is truly atheist--just self deluded at best, per Romans 1) seems to "get it" when so many so-called church leaders do not understand.
Government regulation of marriage has been taken over by the Pink Swastika crowd. Bake the cake or they will send government to destroy your family business. This is homo-fascism in action.
If we have a separation of church and state, in order to protect godly marriage, we must separate marriage and state.
When marriage is a private matter once again, the Pink Swastika crowd cannot force anyone to bake a cake they don’t want to.
“2.
Darwin said the purpose of life is to reproduce. This is the goal of every living thing. An organism that engages in sexual activity that cannot lead to reproduction in a normal sense is a violation of nature.”
And produce live young who grow up to reproduce.
Are children raised by single homosexual men or homosexual couples going to be able to imprint a stable family pattern on their children, who were not born and raised by natural means?
Nope.
For the English, we’ll let the Muslims deal with you. We’re sick of the endless debate.
“Can’t these Christians see that the moral basis of their faith cannot be sought in the pollsters’ arithmetic? What has the Irish referendum shown us? It is that a majority of people in the Republic of Ireland in 2015 do not agree with their church’s centuries-old doctrine that sexual relationships between two people of the same gender are a sin. Fine: we cannot doubt that finding. But can a preponderance of public opinion reverse the polarity between virtue and vice? Would it have occurred for a moment to Moses (let alone God) that he’d better defer to Moloch-worship because that’s what most of the Israelites wanted to do?”
God clearly states that people who commit sexual immorality cannot be given eternal life. What about that is hard to accept? See Revelation 22:15 or Colossians chapter 3.
As for marriage itself, it is a covenant between a man and woman. That by its very nature is a private matter. We have made a grave error by allowing government to have any role in defining or regulating it. People who are hostile to God now occupy government offices and have allowed themselves to be used to destroy godly marriage.
If we have separation of Church and State, for the sake of marriage we must also have a separation of marriage and State. Then anyone can enter into any relationship they please, but the people who want to use the State to force others to Bake the Cake will no longer be able to do so.
Yes, and then the Jews ... again.
Exactly. There is a natural aversion to that part of the body and for good reason. Unless, of course, you are a homosexual male.
The sewer system is considered one of the greatest human inventions of all human history because it effectively managed human waste and the really nasty diseases that made people very sick. To intentionally and frequently put a body part in “that area” is not only foolish and unhealthy, it is disgusting for the average person. And if you are Christian, it defies God.
And to claim that it is no different or exactly like heterosexual sex is absurd.
bkmk
Oh, when the actual two witnesses appear (and I don’t intendtot be here for the events), the world will know it and will rejoice en masse when the antichrist murderers them in the street. I sure hope you are expecting to be here when Rev 11:10 is actually unfolding.
Revelation 11:10 happening right before our eyes.Don't forget Romans 1. (NIV)
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
The two witnesses represent the Church , which for almost two thousand years has plundered Satan’s kingdom by preaching the Gospel and baptizing souls. Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians are clear, there will be a mass apostasy at the end, such that Jesus questioned if he would find faith on the earth when he returned. The great tribulation is spiritual in nature, the falling away from the faith........it will not be persecution ( that has always existed and will continue to exist )
Jesus instructs us to flee to the mountains ( in other words, pray!! )
It is stunning the way this is all happening at a rapid pace, the two witnesses have indeed been killed.
The seventieth week of Daniel is a very real physical series of tribulations, bringing to a close the 490 years promised to Israel to finish sin.
When Jesus described the scenes (in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21) He was describing real events, real tribulations and real destruction to a real Temple.
When Paul, wrote 'by the word of the Lord', he wrote of the departing of the Church, in 1Thess4:13-17, describing a very real event hidden as a mystery since the foundation of the world. And when the folks at Thessolonika got twisted around again, thinking it had already happened, Paul worte in 2Thess2 a reassurance that the man of sin would not emerge until the restrainer is taken out of the way. That is real stuff, for it takes deity to hold back an evil like satan.
When Jesus spoke of going to prepare a place for those who love Him (in Matthew 14), He told the disciples that when he had prepared a place He would come and take them there, THERE, to be with Him. The tribulation happens here, HERE, and He will come at the end of that Great Tribulation to once again, the second time, set foot upon the Earth. He will come for His Church before the tribulations, just as in the days of Noah. And the days of Noah were a real world wide flood.
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