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Tom Horn and Cris Putnam deny Mary's sinlessness
La Salette Journey ^ | May 10, 2013 | Paul Melanson

Posted on 05/10/2013 11:03:04 AM PDT by cleghornboy

In their latest work of anti-Catholic theology-fiction, Tom Horn and Cris Putnam, who were recently featured on Sid Roth's program 'Its Supernatural," attack Saint Jerome's translation of the Greek kecharitomene because the great scripture scholar, who was highly proficient in both Latin and Greek, used the Latin circumlocution gratia plena - "full of grace." (Luke 1: 28).

These two confused souls write, "Official Roman literature states, 'In consequence of a Special Privilege of Grace from God, Mary was free from every personal sin during her whole life.' The only ostensibly scriptural argument given for this is from the Latin Vulgate rendering of Luke 1: 28 when the Angel addresses her, 'Hail, full of grace!' Farfetched as it seems, this is the basis ffrom which they argue, 'since personal moral defects are irreconcilable with fullness of grace' then she must be sinless...we..argue that the phrase 'full of grace' is an erroneous Latin rendering that is even corrected in the NAB to read simply 'favored one.' The Vulgate's distorted translation was the entire basis for the mistaken notion that sinless grace defined Mary's entire life. Exegetically, it is also quite clear in the context of the passage that it is only a reference to her state at that moment when the Angel spoke." (Petrus Romanus, pp. 324-325).

And Cris Putnam is touted by this book as a "respected theologian and apologist." Really? Did he take his degree from an institution which advertises on the inside cover of a matchbook? Luke 1:28 uses the perfect passive participle, kecharitomene. The perfect stem of a Greek word denotes "continuance of a completed action" (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, 175); and "completed action with permanent result is denoted by the perfect stem" (Smyth, sec. 1852:b.).

(Excerpt) Read more at lasalettejourney.blogspot.com ...


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Religion; Society
KEYWORDS: crisputnam; mary; sinlessness; tomhorn
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To: Owl558
but Mary is certainly blessed among women

Of course. That is said in Scripture.

However, it does not say she was sinless. In fact, the Bible says no human is.

That belief was made up by fallible men.

21 posted on 05/10/2013 3:21:02 PM PDT by what's up
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To: cleghornboy

.


22 posted on 05/10/2013 4:15:43 PM PDT by doc1019 (There is absolutely no difference between pro-choice and pro-abortion.)
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To: what's up

Does that mean Jesus is a sinner?


23 posted on 05/10/2013 4:40:06 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: JCBreckenridge

Post #16. Jesus was deity.


24 posted on 05/10/2013 5:02:42 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Gumdrop
Now, is it logical that God, the Almighty Father, would select a woman as a vessel for the Incarnation who was tainted with sin, and under the influence of Satan?

We don't have any indication that Mary was under the influence of Satan. She accepted the Word of God given her by the angel. Why would you say that was influenced by Satan? She likely walked by faith as did all God's servants.

But even though she had faith she was still a fallen human. God uses fallen humans for all kinds of things. He is God. He is able.

25 posted on 05/10/2013 5:07:59 PM PDT by what's up
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To: what's up

You said Paul’s statement applies to everyone. “All” have fallen short of the Law. He doesn’t say, “Everyone except Jesus”.


26 posted on 05/10/2013 8:25:52 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: what's up

And he’s also able to keep her free from sin entirely.


27 posted on 05/10/2013 8:29:24 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: JCBreckenridge
You are actually saying that God the Father is a sinner because "all" is used? "All" obviously doesn't include God the Father, the Holy Spirit or Christ; that is... perfect deity.

It means sinful mankind. And if you honest about the context you will admit that God was not meant.

28 posted on 05/10/2013 8:33:06 PM PDT by what's up
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To: JCBreckenridge
And he’s also able to keep her free from sin entirely.

God is able to keep anyone from sin.

But the Scripture says men are sinners so this is not what has happened.

29 posted on 05/10/2013 8:36:02 PM PDT by what's up
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To: cleghornboy

???

Mary was human being. Of course she wasn’t sinless.
Probably a pretty darn good person, but not sinless.


30 posted on 05/10/2013 8:36:54 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: cleghornboy; Old Sarge; NorthernCrunchyCon; UMCRevMom@aol.com; Finatic; fellowpatriot; ...

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.

She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.

(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)


31 posted on 05/10/2013 8:37:14 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses

Not sure what the point of your post is...


32 posted on 05/10/2013 8:47:51 PM PDT by what's up
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To: what's up

” “All” obviously doesn’t include God the Father, the Holy Spirit or Christ; that is... perfect deity.”

Oh. I see. So ‘all’ doesn’t really mean ‘all’, now does it.


33 posted on 05/10/2013 9:25:56 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: what's up

The scriptures according to you do not say that all men sinned. So clearly ‘all’ doesn’t really mean ‘all’.


34 posted on 05/10/2013 9:26:55 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: JCBreckenridge
Oh. I see. So ‘all’ doesn’t really mean ‘all’, now does it.

It means all mankind. Try reading the verse.

35 posted on 05/10/2013 9:30:25 PM PDT by what's up
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To: JCBreckenridge
The scriptures according to you do not say that all men sinned

False.

36 posted on 05/10/2013 9:35:33 PM PDT by what's up
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To: what's up

You just said that Christ was an exception.

1. Paul stated, “All men sinned”
2. Paul states that Christ is a man.
3. Paul states that Christ was free of sin.

Therefore - of these three are false.

Either 2, (Christ was not a man), 3 (Christ sinned), or 1, (Paul did not refer to ‘all men’.

Choose. 1. 2. or 3. Which is it?


37 posted on 05/10/2013 9:48:02 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: what's up

I have. It doesn’t say what you claim it says, “all men (except Jesus) sinned.


38 posted on 05/10/2013 9:48:46 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: JCBreckenridge
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are justified by His grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus".

2 camps are discussed over and against each other, sinful mankind in the former...Christ in the latter who redeems the former.

Christ can not fall short of the glory of God because of course He IS God. Such cannot be said of mankind.

39 posted on 05/10/2013 10:05:05 PM PDT by what's up
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To: what's up

Arguing with a trolling atheist is a loosing proposition. He will argue circle logic until you start pulling your hair out. LOL! Give it up and just ignore him.


40 posted on 05/10/2013 10:16:20 PM PDT by doc1019 (There is absolutely no difference between pro-choice and pro-abortion.)
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