Posted on 05/24/2012 8:20:21 AM PDT by butterdezillion
What the Hawaii AG forced Bennett to do to his request for verification:
1. Withdraw the whole form he submitted. Because the form had no special directions, HRS 338-14.3 would require the HDOH to verify the accurate, legally-probative facts, and HI can't do that for Obama because his birth record is late and amended - and thus not legally probative as per HRS 338-17.
2. Keep the request for verification that asked the HDOH to verify what is on Obama's birth record. The HDOH can do that without claiming that any of those CLAIMS on the BC are actuallly accurate or legally valid.
3. Change the request from asking for verification that what Obama posted online is a "true and accurate representation of the record on file" - to asking if the INFORMATION on what Obama posted matches what is on file. This is necessary because what Obama posted is an ABSTRACT or composite of what is typed (the incomplete BC) and what is "actually written down" (the affidavits to support the late and amended filing). And it lacks the notations that it was late and amended.
This is why they had to C&P the document. The stamps on the real thing (the non-forged version, if they have one, at the HDOh) would have filled the empty space toward the top of the BC, and the notation of what evidence was submitted to support the late filing and amendment were right in the area where the seal was supposed to go.
I'd post the article which shows the documentation, but I don't know how to post a PDF. And I'd try to get this as a blogger post that serves as a new article in the special category in News/Acivism as per the new policy, but I don't know how to do that either. I'll ask for help from the mods.
In the first comment I'll give a clickable link to the article showing the documentation.
I thought Obama was Native American
As I understand the argument
Butter is saying the Hawaiian replies to the initial request from Arizona were lawyered to death and are therefore meaningless
You are saying that Hawaii replied regardless
Can you see any reason Hawaii would ask for a change in the initial request?
Please don’t waste anymore of your time responding to me. I have explained, in detail, repeatedy, why your premise and logic are wrong.
You keep repeating that the items on the request form were not verified. They WERE verified and I’ve explained HOW they were verified.
I said earlier that if you can’t come to understand the law regarding item #1, there is no need for us to discuss your points #2 & #3.
It’s a holiday weekend. Enjoy it with your family. I will do the same. Let’s part ways amicably agreeing to disagree.
I’m saying Hawaii verified everything for which Bennett asked, did so according to HRS 338-14.3, and that their response was meaningful not worthless.
They did not ask for any such change. They asked Bennett to prove he had a legitimate governmental need for the verification. He provided that on May 17th. He did not drop any part of his original request.
He received verification for everything he requested. Butter simply does not understand the statute she cites as it applies to the “request form” and therefore she draws errant conclusions based on a faulty premise.
(I am not copying her on this because I’ve asked her to enjoy time with her family this holiday weekend. I do not want to responsible for taking her time away from her kids.)
Not being versed in legalize (rhymes with sleaze) I cannot decipher much of the original documents.
I assume however that lawyers dealing with all this leave no room for error as their asses are on the line
In short I can no longer separate wheat from chaff in any of this.
Maybe I never could
Last I think this entire matter is more politics than legal at this points,
That is not to say its not equally important, especially before an election.
I think the question of Obamas ability to claim title of President of the US is dead in the water..... But there are lots of other reasons to look at Obama’s birth mysteries. I think that Ms Warren,the native American Harvard scholar in Mass is a prime example of what should be looked at
A verification of the existence of a record is just that: verification of the existence of a record.
A verification of an August 4, 1961 birth is a legal certification that there was an August 4, 1961 birth.
But Hawaii sort of skipped that part...
The only specific items they would verify is that they have a birth certificate on file for Barack Hussein Obama II which “indicates” a birth in Honolulu, HI. What is the legal significance of “indicates” - particularly when the standard term would be “verifies”?
Why did they not use the standard language of saying they have a legally-valid birth certificate issued by the State of Hawaii verifying the place of birth as Honolulu, HI on the island of Oahu?
After that item, they started a whole new list using a different format and beginning with “Name of person: Barack Hussein Obama II”. Re-stating the name separates item 1 from the rest of the items on that list. Item 1 is the only thing they did that pertains to the actual request for a “verification in lieu of a certified copy”. The DOH website (at http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/vital-records/vital_records.html ) says that
“Letters of verification may be issued in lieu of certified copies (HRS §338-14.3). This document verifies the existence of a birth/death/civil union/marriage/divorce certificate on file with the Department of Health and any other information that the applicant provides to be verified relating to the vital event. “
The other (”in addition to”) request was to “please verify the following items FROM THE RECORD OF BIRTH” (emphasis mine). You’ve never responded to my question about whether a verification of something from a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth would mean that the State was certifying the truthfulness of the claims on a COHB. That’s a critical question. If Bennett had left off the “from the record of birth”, then I could possibly see your point. But by stating that it was to be verified from the record of birth, he’s just asking them to confirm that those items were claimed on the record. That says nothing about the legal validity of the record or the claims on that record.
That’s not the way it works. They verify individual items.
If, for instance, Bennett had put “Gender: Female” on that form, would HI still have verified that a birth certificate is on file? If so, then how would they make it clear that they are NOT verifying that the gender was female?
See, for the requestor to end up with a document that certifies anything, there has to be something on that document that shows exactly what is being certified. A certification that says, “I certify that everything you said is true” means nothing, because there’s no way to know what exactly is meant by “everything you said”.
The only thing that Onaka (or whoever put his stamp on this paper and then initialed it with indistinct initials) personally “verified” out of those 12 items was that they have a birth certificate on file for Barack Hussein Obama II which “indicates” a Honolulu, HI birth. The rest was not spoken in sentences or with any kind of statement of what it means.
We’ll have to disagree because I’m asking clarifying questions and not getting responses to them.
Specific items from the request form are verified in a standard request. The HDOH did not verify those things. They verified the existence of a birth certificate which “indicates” a Honolulu, HI birth. Doesn’t “verify” a Honolulu, HI birth - just “indicates”. IOW, all that is being verified in #1 is the existence of a birth certificate. You’ve tried to say that all their legal tap-dancing shows that everything on Obama’s posted long-form has been verified as the accurate, legally valid truth. I disagree, and I’ve shown why - as well as asking clarifying questions to help you understand why your claims don’t make sense. You won’t answer those clarifying questions.
But my larger question for you - which you also refuse to even address - is why they DID all that legal tapdancing, if it all adds up to the same thing as them saying, “I verify that the State of HI has on file a legally valid, state-issued birth certificate for Barack Hussein Obama II and I verify that Barack Hussein Obama, II, a male, was born on Aug 4, 1961 in Honolulu, HI on Oahu to mother Stanley Ann Dunham and father Barack Hussein Obama”?
You keep saying the same stuff over and over. I keep asking questions that you don’t answer. Clearly we’re not having a conversation. You’re right that it is a waste of time for me to respond to you.
If you can’t separate the wheat from the chaff then the obfuscators have been effective. Sigh.
Let’s go another route, that’s easier to understand.
When have you ever seen a certification that has the certifying statement initialed by an office worker? Alvin Onaka is required to certify records in order for them to be subject to Full Faith and Credit, and yet he doesn’t even take responsibility for this “verification”. He’s got a secretary signing off on this, with initials we can’t even read.
When have you ever seen a certification done like that?
You may be right.
I definitely think it all looks fishy
but why any of these people are doing what they are doing I cant say,
My supposition is that there is something in the records Obama does not want anyone to see. I think the stuff they put on line is not a copy of an actual document but a facsimile...(as stated)
However once he was President Obama cannot make a move without getting legal advice ....so I think the administration lawyers have agreed with Hawaii lawyers that the info is correct whereas the released document is a facsimile or phony (to most people)
Once the lawyers of the state and the Administration agree I think it is a done deal (unless challenged in court)
Its hard for me to imagine any President winging it on this kind of stuff.
This is what this guy says:
May 26, 2012
Will the 1991 Biography Discovery Force Obama to Open the Hood?
By Monte Kuligowski
Arizona’s secretary of state, Ken Bennett, could have used the Breitbart discovery to support a demand for legal compliance and authentication of Obama’s Hawaii records (what a great way to get this shocking news to the general public). But, sadly, it appears that Bennett has backed down from his halfhearted request that Hawaii’s Department of Health send him a certified paper copy of the original birth certificate (the Department merely informed Bennett that the copy it produced for Obama matches the original, not that Obama’s internet image matches the original).
>>>>>>>>>
I think this article is right on about the over all situation
And frankly...while these signs are funny...they get passed around emails as facts (urban myths) then then undermine the entire debate. I get these all the time from family members...BHO did this or that...like he didn't salute at Arlington and here it is on video...but when you did you realize they were playing "Hail to the Chief."
There is enough facts out there by a factor of 10 to ding this guy on without resorting to making stuff up. Sometimes I feel it is the left doing it...because they know we will run with it and then they can make us look stupid.
I think it was you, edge, who mentioned that HRS 338-14.3 was amended in 2010. I can’t find that comment to reply to, but I looked it up and the amendment is shown at http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2010/bills/GM517_.PDF .
It was to change the maximum fee for a verification in lieu of a certified copy.
ALWAYS! You are my inspiration. We will meet up yonder, on some uncloudy day. I hope! :)
I just posted pics of some quilts at http://butterdezillion.wordpress.com/2012/05/27/an-aside-quilts/. I can’t remember who else asked about these so if you know of somebody who likes quilts you can point it out to them. If I remembered how to post jpegs I’d post them here.
The patriotic-themed quilt is the back of the quilt that I made for a wounded soldier, to be distributed by the Maine Quilter’s Guild. The red white and blue side has “Thank you for preserving our heritage” embroidered on the front and signatures from the assisted living facility here. The photo right after that is the front side of it. It has “Thank you for protecting our future” embroidered on it and signatures from the middle school where I worked at the after-school program. I put all different kinds of cloth in it to show the way of life that our soldiers’ sacrifices enable us to have.
I have a friendship bracelet that I always wear on my wrist, that matches one I sent for this soldier - so I will remember to pray for him. And I do, constantly. I hope and pray that he will heal and that he will know how much respect and love I and so many others have for him and others like him. I hope he can wrap up in the love and appreciation represented by that quilt and be glad for the gift of America and all of us who love and protect her.
Yes, we do win in the end, and that thought ALWAYS gives me courage and hope. =)
I posted pics of quilts that I’ve made, at http://butterdezillion.wordpress.com/2012/05/27/an-aside-quilts/
I can only imagine the fun I would have quilting with somebody like your uncle. Lots of time to talk and plenty of interesting stories, I bet. I love to quilt.
The quilt for a wounded soldier was one I had intended to hand quilt. Turned out I couldn’t because the cloth was too thick for the needle to get through by hand, since it was reversible. My finger bled on the corner pretty badly before I figured out it wasn’t going to work so I had to wash that corner and then machine-quilt it. First time I ever machine-quilted. It was kind of a rushed thing to get it done in time for a Veteran’s Day program at school, so my husband was helping me keep the quilt straight so I could pull it along for the sewing machine because there was so much bulk. lol.
Quite a project it turned out to be, but even if it wasn’t everything I wanted it to be I’m thankful that I could at least do something to show my love and appreciation for one of our heroes.
Where’s the embossed seal? Why is there no language in the stamped signature that certifies that the registrar has his butt on the line and swears that this “record” they have is legally valid? Where did that form number come from?
They’re beautiful. I’ll pass your link on to a relative who does quilting. My granny did, but I never learned. I did help her make the round circles of fabric for her yo-yo quilts, but I was too much of a dunce to learn how to hand-stich. I don’t have the patience, either.
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