Posted on 03/24/2012 8:47:14 AM PDT by Travis McGee
(Snip) The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause that is another man’s hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism. This would indicate, as could certain gunshot residue patterns or cuts in certain places if found on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s), that a struggle for a gun was taking place when the fatal shot was fired. This would clearly change the shape of the case. But – WE DON’T KNOW YET. Both men, according to initial reports, were “squeaky clean” in terms of their background. We now know, meh, not so much. There were allegations of domestic abuse against Zimmerman, and a conviction for resisting arrest, in his past. Young Mr. Martin was in the complex in the first place so his dad could straighten him out after being kicked out of school for a week…for what, we don’t know. Pundits who don’t all seem to understand the concept are tying this shooting in to Florida’s Stand Your Ground law much more than they should. There is conflicting evidence/testimony as to whether Martin approached Zimmerman or vice versa in the penultimate moments before the physical fight that led to the fatal shot. There is, in short, not yet enough information for any of us outside the investigation to formulate a solid opinion.
(Excerpt) Read more at backwoodshome.com ...
This can happen if someone holds the slide in place. Imagine firing a semi auto pistol, each time you fire the slide blows back and then returns forward. This action advances the next round into the chamber to be fired.
Ayoob makes the case that during a violent struggle over a handgun, Martin's hand may have been on the slide preventing the next round from loading when Zimmerman fired.
That is a great summary of events.
I’ve been trying to do what little I can by posting links to the available factual information. It feels like pissing in the wind against the media maelstrom, which seems primarily designed to whip up the masses into a frenzy.
That sounds reasonable. What else? Magazine... Ok, I like calling the thingy that holds the ammo a clip. I grew up that way. I know better than the old rifle, gun thing, but clip just seems right.
The bullet holding thingy wasn’t set, or the gun just jammed.
Either way, wouldn’t the slide lock back? Zimmerman reholstered and waited for police. The police cuffed him and took the weapon from the holster. Zimmerman would have had to release the slide back, right?
Ayoob apparently proposes that Zimmerman pulled his handgun, and a struggle over the weapon ensued, during which Martin grabbed the top of the firearm (the slide that moves back and forth as one fires). Zimmerman pulled the trigger, firing one round into Martin. Because Martin's hand was on the slide, holding it in place, the mechanism by which the weapon would have advanced the next round in place to be fired did not occur.
After firing, Zimmerman's weapon would have appeared to be in it's normal state, however there would be no round in the chamber to be fired.
“I have mostly automatics and I like them”
Again you display ignorance. I’d bet you have no fully automatic weapons. A fully automatic weapon fires repeatedly as long as the trigger is held down until it is out of ammo. Civilians can own them but it’s an arduous and expensive process. A semi-automatic weapon fires one round for each pull of the trigger until it is out of ammo. Don’t feel too bad, the media constantly tries to equate the two in the mind of the public.
Oh, and revolvers can jam too. When a revolver jams it’s likely a trip to the gunshop or at least require disassembly. I have had Glocks for 20 years and never had one fail to fire after thousands of rounds fired.
Easy, MtBaldy. The poster has already stated they do not have an expertise in firearms. We ought to embrace this person and teach them, not insult them.
Ok, I could have worded that a little nicer. I did at least tell him, “don’t feel too bad”. Doesn’t that count for something?
Did you know what I meant by automatic?
The nitpickyness on this thread makes me think that someone put itchy powder in all of your underwear.
Thanks 101,
Would someone have to be pretty strong to hold the slide like that? How much force would it take to prevent it from going back?
Just to expand on 101stAirborneVet’s answer on a pistol being “in battery” for boop -
To make an automatic pistol ready to fire, you insert a loaded magazine, pull back the slide all the way (which takes the pistol out of battery). On the way back, a round (assembled bullet+casing+powder+primer) is stripped from the top of the magazine, and forced into the back end of the barrel. When the slide is all the way back, you release the slide, and the recoil spring moves the slide assembly forward on the frame, and the barrel then locks into the slide ready to fire. There is a lot of detail left out, but that’s the general sequence of events. Once this occurs, the pistol is said to be “in battery”.
When the pistol is fired, the bullet exits the muzzle, and the recoil causes the slide to move backwards on the frame, and mechanism causes the barrel to unlock from the slide (now “out of battery”) so that the spent casing can be ejected on the rearward trip of the slide on the frame, and another round is stripped off of the top of the mag, slide reaches full rearward travel and starts moving forward, and then the barrel and slide lock up and go “into battery” to be ready for the next shot.
If something interrupts the rearward motion of the slide after the pistol is fired, it stops this from happening. It is possible that this happened with Zimmerman. Round fires, slide moves backward and the spent casing ejects, but perhaps the slide catches on an article of clothing instead of moving fully rearward properly and stripping that top round off of the magazine. Instead, the mag is left full, and slide / barrel / frame are left in an un-locked-up, out of battery configuration.
That’s probably a little difficult to understand. It’s the kind of thing that if we were sitting over the kitchen table with a firearm, I could show it and explain it in 10 minutes and you would understand it perfectly. Harder to do without props. There’s probably a YouTube out there that would explain it perfectly.
We would simulate a close quarters encounter with a combatant armed with a handgun, and we would either get our hand in front of the hammer (if there was one), or try to prevent the slide from moving.
No training is required to do this, and it could happen on accident during a struggle over a firearm if the other guy gets his hands on it tightly enough.
Yes, you shall receive one half of one gold star.
Since we are not allowed to spank our children anymore (first-hand knowledge), kids are getting suspended from school all the time. Not being "squeaky clean" and even being 6'2" tall, is no reason to be shot to death.
How about being 6'2", and not being squeaky clean, and straddling someone on the ground, and beating them about the head and face while they scream for help?
It makes sense. I appreciate it.
I was curious how much force it would take to stop the slide from going back, but didn’t even think about the cartridge being ejected. Was it? Did the slide return to battery? Getting stuck on clothing makes sense, too. I guess a lot of things can go wrong.
I really feel for Zimmerman. I can’t imagine close quarters combat like this. He had to be terrified. Trayvon may or may not have ended up hurting him badly, but how was he to know?
I really don’t get out to shoot enough. I have a great place to do it, but it has been too long since I have. Maybe, I will go out tomorrow. :-)
Not even then. When two guys get into a fight, they should do it without weapons. -— and it seems that Zimmerman was looking for a fight
When someone pins you to the ground and starts beating you in the head and face, I'll remind you that you should "fight without weapons". And I'll see how long you last before you start to lose consciousness.
Unbelievable.
Given that the racial Balkanization of America is happening before our very eyes, I think that's a great idea.
You can not count on someone else fighting fair. Plus, I have known too many people who can easily kill without weapons. No thanks. Guns make a civil society. If trayvon knew he might be shot maybe he would not have engaged in the fight. Hopefully, enough evidence comes out to calm the mobs and exonerate Zimmerman. I doubt he will do well in jail after all this instigation by the racial self-righteous brothers.
Check the title again. It's the answer to : WHAT WE DON’T KNOW
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