Posted on 02/10/2012 9:16:22 AM PST by Superstu321
Jonah Goldberg makes the case that Libertarians are a essential to the Republican party and that conservatives and libertarians aren't that different.
(Excerpt) Read more at media.aei.org ...
I’m a committed Catholic, believe abortion is infanticide, do not do or believe in doing drugs-not even prescription ones-live a natural lifestyle, vote Republican, and consider myself a libertarian.
I may not take the drugs, eat the processed food, have indiscriminate sex, etc, but I do not care if other people chose to do it in their own homes-but don’t try to tell me it is the right/only way. As you said, it is all about personal responsibility-you really CAN’T legislate morality-look how many civilizations have tried and ended up taken down by the law of unintended consequences.
I have noticed that most conservatives not only accept us but come damn close to embracing us. The ones that do not are the social(ist) conservatives, the ones that feel that we are immoral for embracing our philosophy of individual freedom, and the responsibility that comes with it, so they resort to childish name calling and immature, illogical arguments. The only difference between a liberal and a social(ist) conservative is which side of the spectrum they wish to use to infringe upon our rights. This is why I left the conservative movement. socialism is as socialism does, and social(ist) conservatives are indeed socialists....
But the "movement" idea throws things off.
Conservatives and libertarians agree much of the time, but when you toss the idea of a "movement" pursuing distant goals that aren't going to be attained anytime soon, it can look like the two groups are more different than they are in practice.
"While I wouldn't vote for Paul, he is right on the Constitution
You seem eager to put words in my mouth. Please give the exact quotation of my alleged statement about Ron Paul - and stop making things up.
I said they dont harm people who want it. We dont need to make laws to protect people’s souls or protect them from harming themselves on the basis that it makes people feel better about themselves. That is no different than using government to take tax money and give it out and calling it charity.
“While I wouldn’t vote for Paul, he is right on the Constitution”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You took umbrage that that? Really?
Well OK, let me modify for you:
“I WOULD vote for Paul, because he is right on the Constitution”
or
“I wouldn’t vote for Paul, he is WRONG on the Constitution”
Feel better now?
I’m Catholic-I don’t go to a church that promotes non-members as being wrong, or bad-I would never tolerate that-it is against the teachings of the God I believe in.
I do have a friend who goes to one of those self help groups that preaches that professional casemanagers-like me-are evil, and he thinks everyone outside the group is suspect and dangerous to his “recovery”, whatever that means. My professional experience tells me that this group is a cult, but far be it from me to point that fact out-talk about tribal behavior...
bingo... that is why there are no moral issues in the constitution... EVERY society that has tried to legislate morality has eventually become totaltarian... that is why one of our founding fathers said, “ This document is designed for a moral people. It will not work for any other”. They were not saying that morality is to be regulated and controlled. On the contrary, it was a WARNING that to try and regulate morality would end in the destruction of the country. Why, do some ask? I will give the answer, and it ain’t pretty...
Morality is subjective. How, you say? Well, I have my morals, they are etched in stone. You have your morals, and THEY are etched in stone. As long as we are private citizens, there is nothing subjective there.
Bill clintoon has his morals, and they are etched in stone. Are his morals the same as yours? No they are not. What, then is the difference between clintoons morals and yours?
He was the president of the united states, and could inflict his morals upon us. Not a very pretty picture, is it?
Hitler instilled his morals upon his people. Stalin imposed his morals upon his people. Mandella imposed his morals upon his people. Now, fubo is imposing his morals upon us.
There is no difference between fubo imposing his morals upon us, or jerry falwell imposing his morals upon us. Either way, we are being told what to think, how to feel, how to act, and the ability to prosecute those who disapprove of the morals of the particular people or party in charge is too great to allow.
The constitution is very clear on what the feds can and cannot do. Any powers not specifically granted to the feds in the constitution is reserved for the states and the people respectively.
Morality is at best a states rights issue. But I feel issues relating to morality are best left in the hands of the people. Either you trust your people to do what is right or you don’t. Either way, you do not get to dictate to me how i feel or what i can do ( as long as it does not violate your civil rights)
I now stand ready to accept arguments pertaining to my statements. Please do not waste my time with, “ well what about murder” or other such illogical nonsense. Either debate with intellegence, or I will eat you for lunch.
Joe Fonebone
You keep complaining about losing your right to representation, but you cant explain how your right to representation is threatened. Your rep can be for morality laws, mine can be against, and one of the sides will have more votes and win. That doesnt mean you arent represented. Why dont you just push for direct democracy?
Plus, didnt you say a few times you were leaving?
I'm fine with those restrictions being decided at a local level. If some community wants to have a zoning ordinance prohibiting vehicles being left on the street or even in a driveway, I have no problem with them doing it. Some other community can have rules that allow you to keep cars and boats and whatever else you want in your yard and everybody there is okay with that. People are then free to choose to live in the environment that reflects their own views on how junky or clean they expect their neighborhood to be.
The same thing applies to tobacco or alcohol or X rated theatres or marijuana or salt on my french fries. Don't pass one set of standards at a national level to apply to everyone in the country.
So. Conservatives must keep pressing the battle against Constitutional Libertarians as they seek to do harm to our country
I think there is a lot of harm being done to the country right now by pushing "morality" products and services into the black market. Criminal enterprises become extraordinarily profitable, and with that, corruption of government employees at all levels as the criminals bribe them to keep in operation. At the end of the day you can convince a lot of people not to partake in the immoral behavior by holding a gun to their heads and threatening them with prison time, but you certainly don't foster respect for the government by doing that. To the contrary, you flame the feelings of resentment and disrespect for government.
It seems that you and I are pretty much in agreement. And yes, I also stopped all prescription drugs years ago when I became educated on the topic and learned of the all the harm they cause. The only thing I’ll take (and rarely at that) is an OTC ibuprofen if the aches & pain from manual labor get the better of me. We also avoid as much food as possible that has any additives of any type. Truth be told we are all a lot healthier and feel better since we improved our diet years ago. But as you say, I certainly don’t want government banning any of that stuff that others may wish to purchase and ingest.
You don't consider the teachings of Jews or Moslems to be wrong? You'd be in a better position than me to know about your church, but I'd bet a lot of people there wouldn't share those feelings.
A major difference is that to a Marxist, "morally good" is defined as "whatever advances socialism". This is the essence of their "relative morality", in that something is not good or bad in itself, but only in relation to how it advances socialism.
Thus, racism, sexism, and homophobia are ignored if they are practiced by a system like Islam, because Islam promotes the idea of the Group being everything, and the individual nothing.
I've had more than one social conservative come out in opposition to reduction in welfare benefits, on the argument that this would provide an incentive to abort.
There are times that I think there are quite a few social conservatives who, if presented with a deal where the Dems agree to restrictions on abortion and pornography in exchange for an expansion of the Nanny State and its funding, would take the deal.
The people who I know who are Republican and lean libertarian are mainly concerned with the founders and the constitution being followed. Most feel that all of these wars on the various things are just enabling an overreaching Federal government that little by little, and day by day, destroys the free America that the founders gave us by their blood.
Liberty is the one thing that makes (or made) America unique. Social engineering, financial engineering by a powerful centralized government is what we are NOT supposed to be. Also, you want a strong centralized government to implement control over people’s lives? Well, you have it - and that centralized government is left leaning, big government is ALWAYS left leaning - because tyranny is always left leaning.
Really, stop and think what you are doing by giving unlimited power to a centralized monster government. Take the patriot act for example. Is that being used to go after islamic terrorists? It looks to me like they are starting to target conservatives - like those protesting abortion clinics - because we disagree with big government political correctness. We said rah-rah for the patriot act that denies our ability to fight against a socialized government. We’ve been had!
We are being used as dupes to build this giant socialized monster. They will lie and say it is to make us “safe.” You have to realize the endgame is not going to be what you want. The end game for these politicians is America as a federally controlled, politically correct, prison. And when you vote for a politician who says they are going to “take care of all your problems” - what they really mean is that they are going to lock it all down so that America is no longer free.
I’m not scare of any of the boogie men the govt and media shows me - I’m armed and can defend myself and my family. Even if a terrorist blows up more buildings I’m not scared - I don’t cower. I won’t give up my liberties so I can feel safe. I believe in God and am not scared of death. I am so proud that our founders gave us a free republic.
If America isn’t about liberty, if it isn’t about freedom - then we don’t stand for anything.
I'm a socon and I have no problems with this. Especially when you contrast it with the opposite argument. Which - sad to say - is already in play:
There are times that I think there are quite a few LIBERTARAIANS who, if presented with a deal where the Dems agree to DECREASE restrictions on abortion and pornography in exchange for a DECREASE of the Nanny State and its funding, would take the deal.
There are intolerant people in every faith, probably-I’m not one of them, and I do not associate with people who are. My faith has always been a big part of who I am, and I’m very comfortable with my belief in God.
I’ve never heard a priest rant about Lutherans, Jews, Methodists, etc. I have two friends who are Jewish-just because do not share my belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God does not mean they are satanic or evil-they believe in God the Father the same as non-Jews do. Muslims would be respected if they didn’t support murder, but so many of them do that I don’t think they can be trusted. They also condone the abuse of women, and that is against the teachings of Jews and Christians alike.
I don’t trash any faith that respects the sanctity of life taught by God, the supreme being.
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