I sure am glad we've got people around here to straighten us out about these things.
Posted on 10/01/2011 3:37:24 PM PDT by JOHN W K
I can’t imagine a true patriot proposing a new tax, a national consumption tax which would tax every necessity of life, in addition to keeping corporate taxes and taxes on the working person’s wage.
I also can’t imagine a true patriot proposing a new general tax among the States [Herman’s national sales tax] to feed the beast in Washington, and ignoring the rule of apportioning that tax among the States as required by our founding fathers clear intentions.
The rule of apportioning any general tax among the States was adopted by our founders to cure a vicious evil of democracy. The evil being, when 51 percent of the people in a “democracy” use their vote to tax away the property of the remaining 49 percent of the population. Unfortunately we now have a situation in America under which 45 percent of the nation’s voting population pay no income tax and yet, they were instrumental in putting Obama in the White House!
Our founders saw this very kind of evil [representation in Congress without a proportional financial obligation] and to protect against such evil they adopted the rule of apportionment to be strictly enforced if imposts and duties (taxes at our water’s edge) and internal taxes on “judiciously selected” articles of consumption, were found insufficient to meet Congress’ expenditures, in which case a general tax was then to be laid among the States but only in compliance with the rule of apportionment which predetermines each State’s share of a total sum being raised, the formula being:
FAIR SHARE OF ANY DIRECT TAX AMONG THE STATES
State`s Pop.
_________ X SUM NEEDED = STATE`S SHARE OF DIRECT TAX
U.S. pop.
This rule of apportionment, which precludes the class warfare game now being played upon us by our folks in Washington, is articulated in several of our State Ratification documents, e.g.. see Ratification of the Constitution by the State of New Hampshire; June 21, 1788
Fourthly That Congress do not lay direct Taxes but when the money arising from Impost, Excise and their other resources are insufficient for the Publick Exigencies; nor then, untill Congress shall have first made a Requisition upon the States, to Assess, Levy, & pay their respective proportions, of such requisitions agreeably to the Census fixed in the said Constitution in such way & manner as the Legislature of the State shall think best and in such Case if any State shall neglect, then Congress may Assess & Levy such States proportion together with the Interest thereon at the rate of six per Cent per Annum from the Time of payment prescribed in such requisition-
While the rule of apportioning would still be applied to representation under Herman’s new national sales tax, i.e.,
State`s Pop.
___________ X House size (435) = State`s No.of Reps.
U.S. pop.
Herman ignores applying the rule of apportionment to his new tax and in so doing would deny the People of those States who pay the lion’s share under it their representation in Congress proportionately equal to the financial contribution.
Now, let us take a look at the founder’s clear intentions for any general tax laid among the States:
Pinckney addressing the S.C. ratification convention with regard to the rule of apportionment says:
“With regard to the general government imposing internal taxes upon us, he contended that it was absolutely necessary they should have such a power: requisitions had been in vain tried every year since the ratification of the old Confederation, and not a single state had paid the quota required of her. The general government could not abuse this power, and favor one state and oppress another, as each state was to be taxed only in proportion to its representation“__ 4 Elliot‘s, S.C., 305-6
Also see: “The proportion of taxes are fixed by the number of inhabitants, and not regulated by the extent of the territory, or fertility of soil” 3 Elliot`s, 243, “Each state will know, from its population, its proportion of any general tax” Mr. George Nicholas, during the ratification debates of our Constitution
And, Mr. Madison goes on to remark about Congress’s “general power of taxation” that, "they will be limited to fix the proportion of each State, and they must raise it in the most convenient and satisfactory manner to the public." 3 Elliot‘s, 255
And then there is Mr. PENDLETON‘S comment which goes directly to the evil of democracy being corrected by the rule of apportionment:
“The apportionment of representation and taxation by the same scale is just; it removes the objection, that, while Virginia paid one sixth part of the expenses of the Union [under the Articles of Confederation], she had no more weight in public counsels than Delaware, which paid but a very small portion” 3 Elliot‘s 41
So, for those who are loyal defenders of our Constitution, shouldn’t Herman Cain be asked the following question during Atlanta’s coming debate, perhaps by Michelle Bachmann?
“Mr. Cain,
In the implementation of your 999 plan proposing to tax incomes and tax the wages which working people earn when selling the property each has in their labor, you want an addition tax to feed the beast in Washington, a national sales tax.
Why have you not required your national sales tax to be apportioned among the States, as intended by our founder’s, and was intended to protect our nation from a vicious evil of democracy?”
BTW, as I pointed out elsewhere, the only reason why Herman won Florida’s straw poll is because the 3,500 delegates who voted in Florida’s poll were hand selected by the Republican party county’s executive committee and The Republican Party of Florida i.e., the freaken Establishment! And the Establishment has been trying to get an across the board federal tax on consumption [national sales tax, valued added tax, fairtax, etc.], for years, in addition to keeping existing income taxation, to feed to beast in Washington!
JWK
"If the Constitution was ratified under the belief, sedulously propagated on all sides, that such protection was afforded, would it not now be a fraud upon the whole people to give a different construction to its powers?"___ Justice Story
Maybe it’s time to listen to Cain...just a little closer. You want to trust him?? Not me....
If you eliminate the whopping earned income tax refund checks, eliminate all loopholes for the wealthy, begin to receive taxes on those working under the table... YOU FLATTEN THE TAX. The amount if new revenue would be astounding. The rest of us at. 20-36 percent would now pay 9. And that is only in what we buy not what we earn
If you eliminate the whopping earned income tax refund checks, eliminate all loopholes for the wealthy, begin to receive taxes on those working under the table... YOU FLATTEN THE TAX. The amount if new revenue would be astounding. The rest of us at. 20-36 percent would now pay 9. And that is only in what we buy not what we earn
I do listen to him, and very closely!
Cain sold his soul when joining the Federal Reserve, and now he is doing their bidding for a national sales tax on top of corporate taxes and on top of income taxes, including taxes on the wages of labor, all of which are needed to feed the beast in Washington.
JWK
I heard a breakdown of how this 999 thing works and boy is that a wolf in sheeps clothing.
You are exactly right.
Hit’s the middle class right between the eyes.
I’m with you. Not enamored with Cain’s exact plan but I trust him a whole hell of a lot more than most of the candidates.
When it comes right down to it the spending is the root of the problem. Cain’s plan combined with Bachmann’s spending cuts could be a real winner.
I like Herman Cain, And I like the way he understands the numbers BUT..
He is going to have hell trying to pass the 9 9 9 plan
People will bitch at the bottom over 9% sales tax.(you screwin the poor)
People will bitch in the middle about 9% tax on homes and automobiles (you screwin the middle class)
And here is the clincher.. The IRS and all the other weenies that make a living off of a convoluted tax plan will never let it fly (You screwin my cushy empire)
Mr. Cain's proposal may or may not be the answer but at least has ideas and has the guts to let us know what they are.
Article I, Section 8, Clause 1:
The Congress shall have power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises...but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States...
You're confusing excise taxes (e.g. sales taxes) with direct taxes (e.g. income taxes). Direct taxes were indeed originally required to be equal, to prevent unequal taxation on individuals. That was eliminated with the 16th amendment with respect to income taxes.
Excise taxes (in this case sales taxes) must be uniform, so Federal law can't require a 10% national sales tax rate in FL and a 5% national sales tax rate in CA.
I don’t like his 999 plan one bit. It instantly makes the poorest peoples buying power worse. The people who have the least will be hurt the most by it.
What’s so conservative about that?
(I’ll be ignoring any and all flames on this thread)
What a bunch of morons!
Cain is trying to get us toward a flat tax and thinks his 9-9-9 plan is one step towards that.
I guess this is what Cain gets for actually taking a position on something. He should be like Romney and just attack everyone else without putting up ideas.
If you people keep picking at every little detail when something is proposed, Romney will be our nominee.
I think you coined a good term FOR WHAT WE ARE LIVING UNDER TODAY. “An EVIL democracy. Well at least the evil part was right.
the current tax code allows the rich to avoid taxes and the poor pay nine. Who the he.ll do you think is paying????? THE MIDDLE CLASS and we are tapped out!
I think you coined a good term FOR WHAT WE ARE LIVING UNDER TODAY. “An EVIL democracy. Well at least the evil part was right.
the current tax code allows the rich to avoid taxes and the poor pay nine. Who the he.ll do you think is paying????? THE MIDDLE CLASS and we are tapped out!
Thank you. :)
Yes, those of us who attended RPOF Presidency V as voting delegates were all Republicans. It was a Republican event, Einstein. It wasn't a Libertarian, Green Party or Communist Workers Party event.
Yes, the delegates in my county were hand selected. Names of people who applied to be voting delegates were pulled out of a hat. This required the use of a human limb with fingers and an opposable thumb. Delegate applicants were required to be present for the lottery drawing. Then we were required to pay the admittance fee immediately.
As for Herman Cain's 9-9-9 tax plan, I heard last night that used items including homes and vehicles would be exempt from the tax. I am eager to learn more about the plan. When I have questions, I plan to ask them.
Nice to know you are fine with continuing the progressive income tax system and high corporate taxes. By the way, when did you skip the gross versus net class?
I also take it you really hate the fair tax?
Cain’s system seems a logical step to implement either a fair tax system in incremental steps.
If businesses expand, more people will have jobs and we’ll have...
... less poor people.
Just throwing that out there.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
