The Doc Holliday Principle

www.stolinsky.com ^ | 06-27-11 | stolinsky

[wastedyears]

That was probably the best role Val Kilmer has had, and also apart from being a real-life character, was also excellently portrayed by Kilmer.

[Bockscar]

Good post

[Gondring]

http://www.johnnyringo.com/jrdeath.html

Wyatt Earp claimed to have killed Mr. Ringo. Then, later, he denied it.

It’s rough using a fictional movie as a framework for a non-fiction point.

[ClearCase_guy]

Ike Clanton: "What's that? Twelve hands in a row you've won? Son of a bitch! No one's that lucky!"
Holliday: "Why, Ike, whatever do you mean?"

[ErnBatavia]

Off topic a bit, but two years ago we overnighted in nearby Benson, AZ and then discovered a brochure that Tombstone was only a half hour's drive, so off we went.

Interesting, but kitschy --- at every corner was a barker/cowboy trying to get the turistas to visit "their gunfight show" (admission fee, of course)......turned out there were at least a half dozen in the two blocks.

[G Larry]

If Obama’s objective is to completely undermine America, destroy our Constitution, industry, economy, and position in the world, he is precisely on track, and none of his policies are in conflict with that objective.

[bvw]

True. Let's look at the advice:

When trouble comes, it’s not how many friends you have that counts − it’s what kind of friends they are.

This is true, but it's what known as "too late binding" in the Doc Holliday case! That is, when trouble comes and that's when you find out ... too late.

So its good advice, but you have to have some trouble first to find who your friends are. A similar principle is found in great generals and leaders: those who lose and lose at the start of things will come out as great winners ... if they can persevere. The US example is of course George Washington. Robert Bruce the Scottish example, especially if one allows the legend of the spider he learned from. Churchill among others is a British example. Cao Cao is a Chinese example.

In losing, horrible yet survivable losses, you really do develop a core group of the extremely trustworthy.

And what about this:

In matters of life and death, the first thing to decide is whether the person is serious or just pretending. And if he is serious, it is best to be careful.

Okay, how do determine that? No general rule applies really. The key here is it is a life and death situation. But for who? For you, for him, for who?

People don't "pretend" in their own life and death situations--but their behavior does tell a tale. Some ignore the situation: as strange as that may sound it's perhaps the MOST common reaction. Deadly of course, but very normal.

Others panic, some freeze. A few deal with the situation. Training and experience count a WHOLE LOT.

[FredZarguna]

Speaking of fiction, I would not cite that website as the source of any authority. Contrary to his portrayal in the film, Johnny Ringo was not a dangerous gunfighter. As a matter of fact, he was probably not much of a gunfighter at all; he once killed an unarmed man. That’s the only gunfight he’s actually known to have been in. Any of the Earp brothers could have handled him very easily — one of them may, or may not — have.

[azsportsterman]

If you go to a tourist town, you should expect to see tourist attractions.

[Finny]

John Steinbeck said (and I paraphrase) that just because something didn't happen, doesn't mean it isn't true.

Something can be false in historical accuracy and yet be 100 percent true on another level. Actually, that's always been how good fiction works.

There was a hell of a lot of truth about human nature, love, and duty in Tombstone.

[FredZarguna]

I agree with you about that.

The same thing can be said about Shakespeare's "historical" plays, most of which are nothing but Tudor propaganda on a historical level; but they contain fine lessons and high drama (and comedy) withal.

I wasn't actually commenting about that, although I believe Gondring was.

The film also has the best character roles of several of the actors' careers (usually the sign of a great screenplay and a great director when all the actors do so well.) Val Kilmer in particular has never been quite so good again.

[FredZarguna]

John Steinbeck said (and I paraphrase) that just because something didn't happen, doesn't mean it isn't true.

Dan Rather said that, too: "Fake but accurate." But in his case he was lying.

[alexander_busek]

John Steinbeck said (and I paraphrase) that just because something didn't happen, doesn't mean it isn't true.

Sure it wasn't Ken Kesey - the last sentence of Chapter 1 of "One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest?"

Regards,

[Tainan]

It was a “Steinbeck-like” quote...;)

[nathanbedford]

“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”

Lord Palmerston was correct in his maxim and the author of this piece is wrong. As one poster has already observed, it is on a false foundation to construct an analysis on a work of fiction.

American foreign policy must not be crafted out of sentiment but out of a rigorous analysis of our national interests. We have have violated this rule in the past. We have twisted the British Lion's tail to appease my Irish cousins who immigrated to the states. We have conducted our foreign policy against Cuba with one eye on the South Florida student émigré community. We have aligned ourselves with 4 million people with no oil against half a billion people with the world's great reserves of oil because of the American Israeli lobby.

Ludendorff, referring to Austria in the midst of World War I famously said, "we have shackled ourselves to a corpse." Where was Bismarck when Germany needed him? Where is John Adams when we need him?

The idea that we could take the slightest moral lesson from the career of Wyatt Earp in Tombstone, Arizona is ludicrous beyond description. Earp was a whore master, a gambler, and a dirty policeman. His "wife" was a whore who practiced her profession in Tombstone where she was duly licensed by Wyatt Earp himself.

There might be much in Earp's career in terms of courage and independence which is admirable but there are very few lessons to be had which would inform our foreign policy.

[nathanbedford]

The sentence in my last Post should read:

"The Cuban émigré community..."

[tlb]

>>> trying to get the turistas to visit “their gunfight show” (admission fee, of course)......turned out there were at least a half dozen in the two blocks.

Are you positive you didn’t get turned around at the cloverleaf and take the Baltimore exit?

>>> John Steinbeck said (and I paraphrase) that just because something didn’t happen, doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

John Ford got the point across better.

Ransom Stoddard: You’re not going to use the story, Mr. Scott?
Maxwell Scott: No, sir. This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend

[Hatteras]

Why Johnny Ringo, you look like somebody just walked over your grave...

[Sans-Culotte]

It’s rough using a fictional movie as a framework for a non-fiction point.

He said from the outset "In the movie Tombstone". He never claimed to be quoting from real life. A fictional story makes a great illustration for reality. That's why we have fables, allegories, etc.