Posted on 12/23/2010 5:29:16 AM PST by marktwain
I have said it before and I will end up saying it again: the 1911 an old design that is more trouble than it is worth. I don’t say it to be confrontational, or to draw attention to myself. I say it because I see my fellow shooters mindlessly parroting the gun equivalent of Chuck Norris Facts whenever the 1911 comes up in conversation, and I just don’t get it.
I am not surprised that the 1911 is out of place in today’s world, and you shouldn’t be surprised either. What other 100-year old design is still in daily use?
In the comment section of another blog, I summarized my skepticism of the 1911′s attributes thusly:
It’s a 100-year old design. It needs tools to disassemble. It has unreliable magazines. It is finicky about ammo. And, as a single-action pistol, it is unsafe for 95% of its users to carry.
In my original complaint, I forgot to mention the issue with slide-stop failures, and the whole internal extractor/external extractor situation. Either of which would be serious enough to kill any other design’s reputation in the shooting world.
In response to some knee-jerk defenses of the 1911 from fanboys who drank too much John M. Browning Kool-Aid, who told me how all that I needed to do was buy a bunch of aftermarket parts and send the gun to a gunsmith, I added:
Why does a reliable 1911 cost so much, and need so much gunsmithing?
To be fair, I have some of the same complaints with the Walther PPK. Which is also a very old design, one which has been eclipsed by more modern designs which can do everything it does better.
I mean, is it unreasonable to expect an affordably-priced pistol for defense to reliably feed hollowpoints out of the box? What Smith&Wesson pistol of recent manufacture won’t feed hollowpoints? What about Glock? SiG? Beretta? (I know Kahrs need to have some rounds through them before they are reliable, but it says that right in the owners manual). The shooting public would not accept an unreliable gun of a more modern design. But for some reason, the 1911 gets a pass for all of its flaws. “Just use hardball” is not a valid defense of the 1911 design, nor is it a valid strategy for selecting ammunition to defend yourself.
And God help anyone who buys a used 1911. Everyone and their brother seems to think they are qualified to take a Dremel to their 1911. Guys who can’t change their own flat tire somehow have no reservations about playing doctor on their 1911. Who knows what wacky “custom” parts have been put into the gun because someone read about it on the interweb tubes?
It was the best military sidearm of its day, and for a long time afterward. I do not dispute that. But its time has long passed. And a military sidearm is not the same thing as a handgun for personal defense.
Leave aside the lack of reliability with hollowpoints, and the other problems. The 1911 is too big to conceal. And the smaller versions are less reliable due to the shorter slide-travel and a tendency to limp-wrist the gun.
Some people protest by saying that the 1911 is the best gun for defense, because the most “realistic” shooting sports are heavily populated with 1911 users. And everyone knows that you should train like you fight, so that you will fight like you train, right? Well, that would be a more convincing argument if those “realistic” shooting sports didn’t have intricate rules that somehow disqualify most non-1911 designs. Purely by coincidence, right? Sure, they come up with semi-plausible rationales for some of those rules, but there is no way to disguise the overall bias towards the 1911.
I don’t hate 1911 fans. I merely pity them, because they are victims of marketing hype and groupthink, the lemmings of the gun world. And if someone sinks thousands of dollars into a 1911 (and isn’t using it to compete for money), well they are just gullible. Like the kind of people who pay money for tapwater in a bottle.
So what if Jeff Cooper liked the only handgun in use when he was in the military? It’s not like he had a choice of other handguns to use. And, on a related note, Jeff Cooper has a reputation that exceeds his accomplishments. The best information that I can find shows that he spent the battle of Guadalcanal as the training officer on Gen. Vandegrift’s staff. Not leading a platoon. Not on the line, pulling a trigger. And his coy evasions when asked about his real-world experience with gunfighting are revealing, if one cares to view them objectively. (If you have documentation about Cooper’s real-world experience, please drop me a line. I am happy to revise my opinion.) I have no doubt that he was qualified to teach people how to shoot on a range. Beyond that, a grain of salt is required. I prefer to get my advice on defense & gunfighting from men who have actually been there & done that; Massad Ayoob, Jim Cirillo, etc. Am I a qualifications snob? No, I am an results snob.
Ok, got it out of my system.
Merry Christmas and GOD bless!
LLS
Merry Christmas and happy hunting.
I agree! Maybe we can get Glade to put it out in a scented oil... just for Christmas time!
Merry Christmas and GOD bless!
LLS
Maybe a Hoppe’s #9 after shave for you guys. The women would be all over you! (:D)
both my 30-06 garands have little kick...but of course they weigh a ton...my .35 rem model 336 Marlin lever kicks more. my son has a BAR (the sporting rifle not the light MG) it weights less than the garands and kicks very lightly...
a good gas system lightens recoil completely. I had the same kind of Dad. he was a Marine then a NYPD cop...my job as a little guy was to clean his model 10 S&W revolver....so I too was born with gun cleaning savvy.
Merry Christmas for you and your family....
Probably a day late and a dollar short butt...
We love our 1911’s for the same reason we love our Harleys. They are simple; They work; We can understand, tune, customize and tinker with them for fun.
Also, they are loud and for some reason, just seem manly!
Choice of buttkickers for 100 years.
That's OK then. It only has a 5% chance of not working when you need it.
let’s see, 100+ year old designs:
ICE (internal combustion enigine)
Airfoil
Incandescent lightbulb
Flourescent light ulb
Electric anything
Steam heat
Wood heat
Coal heat
Door knob twist drill
grinder wheel
knife
gunpowder (black and smokeless
the brass cartridge case
and on and on and on....
oh, the “wheel” for a keeper.
The 1911 is a fine design, just as is the flintlock too, however, a flinter would really look silly with an IR laser....
You nailed that right!
I love my Glocks, my Beretta, and mostly my Sig P220.
Though I own and ride a 2009 Yamaha Star 1300 Tourer with a no problem fuel injected water cooled V-twin engine I still long to own a Harley.
A Harley gets respect, the chicks and is the IMAGE.
Sure the rice burner was cheaper, needs almost no modification to be a performance animal I have to honestly say it lacks one thing, it has almost no soul, I can give it my personal touches but it would never have the respect of a show quality Harley thats been through an LA Choppers re-do.
Thus that is where a 1911 has its promises.
You can also obtain new parts for old harleys.
Other bikes have very short spare parts availability.
Yes you are right, when I looked for parts on my other bike a restoration project (its a 1980 Honda CX500 Deluxe) there was a lot, they were mostly very affordable, it wasn’t a superbike in its heyday but was built in large numbers, it had a unique design that nobody except for Moto Guzzi uses, its a flying V or transverse V-twin.
My Star 1300 is still relatively new and parts are still pricey, but do a search for ANT Harley bike part and its a whole new world. A very loyal and patriotic name brand that many have devoted their lives to in restoring.
I had a machine shop teacher who taught me most of my vertical milling skills who fabricated modern day replicas of older Harley ignitions. He could mill it out of aluminum, make it polished or anodized.
I rarely see any Glock getting such a treatment as this. But its a whole new world when customizing a 1911 frame.
Same back atcha FRiend.
LLS
Thanks for the tip!
I had Custom Cartridges make me up some 110 grain .306 rounds that I use through my 03’Springfield and P-17. At 200 yards they are almost a flat trajectory. The kick is negligible. The 03’ is a wonderful rifle with excellent action...just be careful with the low serial number ones.
That target was 6 rounds with 1957 surplus ammo and a crappy Tasco scope. It puts a dent in my shoulder, but what a wonderful rifle!
The Remington and Mossberg shotguns. Fine pieces of 19th century technology both.
CC
Then-Major Cooper was on the 1952 USMC board that evaluated the German P.38 and then-new S&W M39 as potential replacements for the M1911. Being a good Marine, he not only wrung the pistols and their ammunition out personally, but had them evaluated by groups of Marines in various stages of training, and some about to leave active duty for reserve status. In all cases, he found that the double-action truiggers reduced hit probability as the firer transitioned from the first to second shot. And, since hollow-point or expanding bullets were neither available nor legal for the Marines to use, concluded that the *new* DA handguns failed on two counts.
And, on a related note, Jeff Cooper has a reputation that exceeds his accomplishments. The best information that I can find shows that he spent the battle of Guadalcanal as the training officer on Gen. Vandegrift’s staff. Not leading a platoon. Not on the line, pulling a trigger.
You should probably read Col Cooper's books Fireworks and C-Stories.
And his coy evasions when asked about his real-world experience with gunfighting are revealing, if one cares to view them objectively. (If you have documentation about Cooper’s real-world experience, please drop me a line. I am happy to revise my opinion.)
See above. He was quite forthright about the three life-saving experiences he had in the Pacific during the time I spent with him, but there was exchange both ways and he was among those who had also been there and done that. BTW, his preference for the M1911 .45 was shared by another Marine with Pacifac experience, who probably killed more men with a handgun than any other American soldier/Marine-certainly in excess of a hundred, probably five times that, not at all impossibly a thousand. Like Col. Cooper, he didn't brag about it.
I have no doubt that he was qualified to teach people how to shoot on a range. Beyond that, a grain of salt is required. I prefer to get my advice on defense & gunfighting from men who have actually been there & done that; Massad Ayoob,
Ayoob is certainly qualified to shoot on a range and instruct others. But he's never been in a gunfight, and the one time he was beset by robbers, he threw money at them to get them to go away. It was maybe the smart move, and probably saved him a lot of paperwork and a grand jury hearing. But I doubt Col. Cooper would have handled it that way, not Jim Cirillo.
Jim Cirillo,
When I met him, he was wearing a 1911.
etc. Am I a qualifications snob? No, I am an results snob.
Me too. And I like my Browning GP. But there's a time and a place for everything.
FYI, Cooper missed a couple of points about the M1911 to which I was introduced in my own military training. I don't consider myself an expert with one, but I certainly prefer the M1911 to a great many other choices, and the .45 ACP to several other possibilities, especially when ball ammo is all that's available. And the two of them, M1911A1 in .45 ACP, go together like bread and butter. I very much doubt that you'll ever need a .45 for the use I expected when I was nineteen years of age. But if it comes to that, I hope that whatever you have works as well for you.
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