For me it's that stupid owl meme wearing a wig...
Posted on 09/22/2010 11:52:14 AM PDT by butterdezillion
The Great Birth Index Fiasco
Back in February I requested to see, among other things, the hand-written birth index for 1961 (or microfilms of the hand-written index), which existed in 1980 and was required to be retained permanently. The HI State Archivist confirmed that the HDOH should have the document, but the HDOH said they didn’t have it. The entire history of that request is here.
The concluding response the HDOH gave was a claim that they did not have the handwritten 1961 birth index but that they could print the computer-generated 1961 birth index at a cost of $98.75, which I should send if I wanted them to send the record. They enclosed a Notice to Requester which outlined the reason for the specific cost (which included 4 15-minute periods for an office worker to “segregate” records, in addition to an hour to search for the record). The fine print of the Notice to Requester said that all requester obligations for the request had to be fulfilled within 20 business days or the agency would consider the request abandoned. Because I had never made a request for the computer-generated birth index there were no obligations for me to fulfill. The HDOH was simply telling me what it would cost to fill the request if I chose to make it.
On July 29th I chose to make that request. I sent an e-mail saying that I would be sending a money order for $98.75 in order to get the computer-generated 1961 birth index and asking if I could have someone pick it up at their office on Thursday, Aug 5th, if the money order was in their office by Mon, Aug 2. I also sent a hand-written letter officially requesting the computer-generated birth index, together with a copy of the Notice to Requester on which the cost had been stated and a money order for $98.75. My mail delivery confirmation showed that the written request and money order was in the HDOH office at 6:08AM on Aug 4th. (I’ve mistakenly quoted it as 6:02AM elsewhere, including to the HDOH).
On Monday, Aug 2 I received an e-mail from the HDOH saying that my e-mail request had been marked by their IT Dept as being possible spam; I should re-send. I did not re-send because my question was moot by then and I had already sent the paper request and money order anyway.
On Aug 3rd Mark Niesse of the AP asked the HDOH for copies of the last 3 requests for Obama’s records. Mine was one of those 3 requests. My e-mail account name was not redacted from the records the HDOH gave Niesse; he contacted me via Facebook to see if he could interview me for an article he was working on. (I did not respond to him until after the article ran.) On Aug 4th (while my paper request and money order was in their office) Niesse interviewed Janice Okubo, who told him that they offer the computer-generated 1961 birth index for $98.75 but nobody had sent in any money yet and they were asking the AG for a ruling on whether they should continue to “offer” that. She said that Obama is in their 1961 birth index and they allow the public to view index records in their office.
So I have proof that my e-mail request for the computer-generated 1961 birth index had arrived in their office on July 29th and a paper request and money order had arrived in their office by the start of the day on Aug 4th – the very day when Janice Okubo told Mark Niesse that they offer the 1961 birth index for $98.75 (the amount of my money order). IOW, I have proof that I had my request and money order for the full amount in the HDOH office while they were still “offering” the 1961 birth index.
Niesse’s article wasn’t actually published until Saturday, Aug 7th. In response to Okubo’s public statement in that article that they hadn’t received any money from anybody, I contacted Niesse to find out when he had interviewed Okubo and found that it was during the workday on Aug 4th.
Because I was concerned about how Niesse was able to find out my last name when I only use the name “Nellie” in my communications with the HDOH, I also e-mailed a request to see any UIPA responses the HDOH had sent out containing a request by me. They sent me a cover letter and enclosed their response to Niesse’s request, including my July 29th request - flagged as possible spam but with almost the entire text visible.
I sent the HDOH a Cease and Desist letter , asking them to remove all references to my last name from their contacts with me and from the UIPA responses where they have referenced my last name. They have ignored my request, as their latest response to me contained my last name.
I also contacted the HDOH and after a series of calls and workers was told they couldn’t find a record of my request; they didn’t know what had happened to it but I should contact hdohinfo. So I did. Eventually they told me in an Aug 13th e-mail that they were sending back my money order because I had abandoned my request since I hadn’t responded to the Notice to Requester within 20 days. And sure enough, they sent my money order back.
I reminded them that the Notice to Requester had been sent to me to tell me that I COULD request the computer-generated 1961 birth index, since the request I HAD actually made (for the handwritten index) could not be filled because that permanent record no longer exists (they claim). I asked them exactly when they say they received my request for a computer-generated 1961 birth index, since it had not been 20 business days since my first contact with their office requesting that particular record. At first they insisted that they had already answered all my questions so I made an actual UIPA Request for a copy of my request for the computer-generated 1961 birth index, including the date that it arrived in their office.
They had already sent back the money order that was included with my paper request. They had replied to my e-mailed request, asking me to re-send it. And they had sent copies of my e-mailed request to both Mark Niesse and myself in response to UIPA requests. That’s 4 different times that the HDOH showed that they had my request in their office - the e-mail request received by July 29 and the snail-mail request by Aug 4th.
On the 10th business day they e-mailed to say there were no records responsive to my request – that they had no record of my request for the computer-generated 1961 birth index. What they had acknowledged 4 different times before they now claim they don’t have.
They’ve also said they only collect birth data in 5-year increments so they can’t release the 1961 birth index. So in the same request as in the last paragraph I also requested “to see any communications to or from your office regarding what changed from the time you told me that you could release the computer-generated birth index for 1961 and now, as well as any duly-passed law or regulation which says that index data may only be released in increments of 5 years.”
No records responsive to my request. (It is worth noting that their MARRIAGE INDEX is in a 6-year increment for the years 1960-65 only, based upon copies of birth index pages they sent in response to a request)
I’ve also asked to see their communications asking for a ruling by the Hawaii Attorney General . They responded that there are no records responsive to my request. Compare this with the AG Administrative Rules’ procedures to amend rules (see Subchapter 4 ) or to ask for a declaratory judgment (see Subchapter 5 ) from the AG – which clearly require written communications.
To summarize:
2. The HDOH has changed their claims to say they can only release index data in increments of 5 years. But there are no laws or regulations which say that and they have the physical capability of printing whatever they want. Disclosure of the exact year of birth is apparently not forbidden, because according to Niesse’s article, Okubo already told him that Obama is in their 1961 birth index. HRS 338-18 requires index data to be released to the public.
3. Janice Okubo stated in a public interview for an article that was published nationally that they were asking the Hawaii Attorney General for a ruling on the implementation and/or interpretation of laws and rules – a process which is required to be done in writing. But the HDOH claims there are no communications to or from their office regarding why their “offer” of the 1961 birth index no longer exists.
4. All this is done to keep from having to release index data they claim is already accessible to the public at their office. They have stated that all index data is really about Obama. They have stated that Obama is in the 1961 birth index. But they appear to be lying and/or illegally destroying records, as well as disobeying HRS 338-18, UIPA, and their own Administrative Rules in order to try to avoid having to put their money where their mouth is. I give the complete details about this case because it is representative of a whole host of similar experiences I have had with the HDOH, as those who have read the blog are aware. Sadly, this seems to be typical fare from this government agency. And nobody in Hawaii’s government, media, or law enforcement will hold them accountable for it.
But reasonable people all over this country are asking, “Why? Why so much unethical and illegal behavior to hide the public index records they say they’ve already confirmed?”
“Though the right to inspect includes the right to copy, the HDOH won’t allow the public to photocopy the index books.”
In this day and age of cell phone cameras, I cannot buy this excuse. I can imagine that HDOH wouldn’t help anyone copy it, or doesn’t provide a copier in that area. But if someone can see it, they can snap a pic.
If Hawaii is allowed to continue to cover up it’s own Citizenship fraud going back years, there are literally thousands of people who could do it unto us again.
If Hawaii is allowed to break the law with impunity, there would literally be nothing to stop it from happening again. And again. In fact there would be no legal reason for any state to document births in a legitimate fashion.
The rock in this pond leaves BIG ripples. Leaving it un-dealt with is not really an option.
Actually B, this is a common practice everywhere.
One reason is that people change jobs, or multiple people will work to respond to inquiries. It's usually to keep the address consistent more than to keep the identity secret.
Case in point, where I work parts inquiries go to “Parts@MyCompany”, Service requests go to: “Service@MyCompany”, Job inquiries go to: “HR@MyCompany”, etc.
If we get rid of Obama by voting him out, what is the HDOH going to do differently? What are the media and law enforcement systems going to do differently? What will they have learned, beyond that they can get away with anything they dang well please?
See, I think people read the “birthers” all wrong. People think this is a vendetta against Obama. It really has very little to do with Obama at all. It has everything to do with a system that is corrupt, that ties the hands of the citizenry who wish the law to be obeyed, and that mocks those who take the rule of law seriously.
It’s a lose-lose for everybody. If the media can get away with all these lies we may as well kiss an informed citizenry good-bye, and that is something this nation cannot survive.
As we’re invaded on our southern border by lawless gangs who pattern their methods after Al Qaeda to blow up cars and behead anybody who opposes them... if the political powers-that-be are able to totally neuter the enforcement of our laws, we can’t survive that.
This is really about the integrity of the infrastructure, which is what both communism and Islamism seek to undermine. If they can leave us without integrity in government, media, and law enforcement then the nation is putty in their hands.
That’s what this is about, and that’s why it is just as crucial that Fukino sit in jail when all this is over, as it is that Obama sit in jail. If there’s no penalty for perjury, forgery, misprision of felony, concealment, etc then those laws don’t exist. And that’s pretty much where we’re at as a nation right now.
That is what is creating a lot of the passion you see right now. The eligibility issue is not tangential; it is the first critical rung on a ladder of abuses of the law. And the people are sick of it.
I believe that we will have a new Congress in January. I believe we that will have a new Speaker of the House in January. No matter what may be the political makeup of the Senate, GOP control of the House means that Speaker Boehner will have the ability to initiate impeachment hearings in the House. Obama's lack of Constitutional qualifications for the office of POTUS can serve as a solid ground for impeachment. Impeachment hearings will permit the House to subpena and secure all of the regular documents.
It will all come down to Speaker Boehner - does his Constitutional oath to protect the Constitution mean anything to him or is he just a political hack?
That is one point to all of this.
You have just made a point that has not been made
by a couple of years worth of birther garbage.
You have caused me to look at the issue in a different way than I had previously done.
At least an aspect of it.
I’m still unable to get Orly Taitz and her lunacy out of my mind regarding this issue.
The two are inexorably linked I’m afraid.
For me it's that stupid owl meme wearing a wig...
It has been an effective diversion from the real issues.
Obama could do far worse than to hire Taitz to put a clown's face on the whole issue.
Who is to say he didn’t?
TsunamiGeno said (found at http://myveryownpointofview.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/ya-cant-always-get-what-ya-want/ ):
“When finished with the index, I asked Jesse if I could get any supporting documentation including copies or a certified copy on the name I did find. He said, “No, is not available to the general public.”
At P&E, the researcher’s language wasn’t real clear, but she said, “I took the indexes to the counter where you fill out record request forms to examine them and make digital images.”
That makes it sound like you request the records so you can examine and make digital images of them, but when you read the entire context it is clear that there was a counter that she went to so she could make digital images.
Later she said, “I didn’t ask for a copy of an index page, since I had made my own images”
I could check again, but I’m almost positive that the digital images that she went to the counter to make were digital photos with her camera. Look at the image. You can see the counter that the document was sitting on. That was a photograph.
She also mentioned that she was prepared to read them the riot act if she had asked for a copy and they had refused, but she didn’t ask for a copy. TsunamiGeno did, and was told no.
“
I guess that makes it OK for them to ignore my request to not address me by my last name too then, huh?
OK, whoever you are, come and get me. I was stupid enough to trust a government agency’s claim that a person could use an alias and that their contact information would not be revealed. I guess I’m the sucker.
A camera is how we got the images we’ve got. TsunamiGeno was not able to get a photo and they would not let him have a copy.
Chalk it up to a learning experience.
“we...”?
Something you need to know about Orly. She’s had people doing psy-ops on her for a long time. BVW mentioned two techniques (dang, I can’t remember the terminology) which are used to demoralize and send people over the deep end. I can relate to what she has been through.
Throw together threats, denial of service attacks, viruses on her site (which is why I won’t even look on her stuff), tampering with her husband’s car, sleep deprivation, financial worries, constant lying on the part of the people she’s trying to expose (the two different techniques that BVW named), and the unwillingness of anybody to take anything seriously .... and you are going to end up with somebody who is passionate and sometimes incoherent. Some of these techniques are used to try to get terrorists to crack.
I don’t know about her competence level, because to be honest, I’m incompetent when it comes to legal stuff. lol. (They say it takes one to know one but I don’t even know enough to know when somebody else doesn’t know what they’re doing on courtroom procedures. lol) So you and others may well have a valid concern there.
But I do know that psy-ops are being used. That’s why Obama hires people to go on forums and act like they’re somebody they’re not. That’s why there are denial of service attacks, viruses, etc. That’s why some of my e-mail gets delivered and some doesn’t. It’s why I get threats. That’s what Alinsky is: psy-ops.
And it all sort of underlines the issue I was talking about before. When you’ve got people who believe they can get away with anything, this is the stuff you get. You get innocent people refusing to buck the system because they are afraid of retaliation.
I asked my sister one time if she would send in a request to the HDOH because I knew if it had my name on it the HDOH would suspect it was about Obama and somehow botch up the request. She said no, because she had just had her Facebook hacked and was keenly aware that there are people with power who can do bad stuff to people who make any waves that they don’t like.
My husband has been telling me the same thing. He says, “If you go stirring up the hornet’s nest, you’ll get what you’re asking for. They can do anything they want to your computer or to you. If you’re willing to take that risk, go ahead but the kids and I will miss you.”
It’s terrorism. And it’s why I am more resolved than I’ve ever been, that if I consider myself a good person but choose to ignore it when they go after the handicapped because I wasn’t handicapped, or the Jews because I’m not a Jew.... then evil will triumph because I cared more about my own personal comfort than about securing a safe, lawful world for my kids.
So I realize I am obsessed. I hope I’m not loony. lol. But if being obsessed is the way that I can offer a future to my kids, then it’s a labor of love and I will gladly take whatever ridicule comes my way.
I don’t expect you to like or respect Orly. But you’ve been more than fair in hearing me out (even with my long posts. lol. Sorry about that) so I expect that you’ll probably at least consider that Orly may be a little cracked because people have been working hard to crack her. That’s what we’re up against.
Thanks for hearing me out (assuming I haven’t put you to sleep yet. lol)
That’s why they black out the name of the worker who answered UIPA requests?
I see what you’re saying, but there’s also stuff like the folks who talk on the phone being unwilling to say anything if they have to give their name. Buckeye Texan noticed that. There’s definitely a desire to remain anonymous. Okubo herself went anonymous sometime in December, IIRC.
Society in general.
I’ll chalk it up to a learning experience, but you might need to help me come up with a better “cheer-me-up” for my husband about now. lol
Fair enough..
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