Posted on 09/06/2009 3:26:34 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
QUESTION: What mistakes do you think most people make preparing for what you and your countrymen have gone through?
I wouldn’t call them “mistakes”, I don’t hold the SHTF Bible so all I can give is my humble advice which may be correct or not, so all I can tell you is “ I wouldn’t do that if I were you”, and depending on how sure I am , add a smartass grin smiley.
There’s simply some preparations that make little sense if you think about it, others that I’ve seen that just wouldn’t work, in spite of all the speculations.
a) Maybe the one that rubs me the wrong way the most concerns retreats. It’s also something many survivalists consider the summit of their preparations. A self sufficient fortification-ranch, with the nearest neighbor several miles away.
Isolated farms or retreats are targeted and are often victims of robbery and in some cases extremely violent home invasions. You may have 6-10 able men you are counting on to defend it when TSHTF… “when TSHTF” …so they aren’t there right now? Then you don’t have them, nor will you have them when you need them, most likely. The isolation works to the attackers favor, who often take their time having their way with everything and everyone inside the house.
The “away from everything” theory just doesn’t work when taken to the field. Happens here and same happens in Africa where ranchers and farmers have to fight rebels, rogues or whatever they are calling them these days.
They’ll find you, they’ll know about you one way or the other. You cant hide simply by living a gas tank away from the city. If there’s a road that reaches your place, you are fair game, doesn’t matter if it’s a dirt road in poor condition. You get there with a car/truck? So can bad guys.
You are obviously safer from small time robberies or pickpocketers and snatchers, but you are more vulnerable to the worst kind of criminals. Not that living in a city or suburbs makes it MUCH safer, but I’d rather live here where I live now than in a farm house any day of the week. People can somehow organize to hire security, talk to the police. Yes, most people border idiotic and are pretty clueless, but it’s better than being alone with no chance of even trying to convince people.
I’m not talking about living in a large city being the best option, I’m talking about living in a small town or community, looking for safety in numbers but avoiding the problems of a metropolis.
I definitely would choose a house in a small town or subdivision near a city, rather than a far away retreat. Rather than looking for the ultimate self reliance retreat in the middle of nowhere, look for a subdivision where you have enough land, where you can keep a small orchard and some small critters if you want, a place with a basement where you can build a NBC shelter as time and money allows. That’s what I’d look forward to if living in US.
b) The barter items thing is also pretty strange. I don’t see how it could possibly be a smart idea to buy goods to sell or trade after a crisis, surely not in the quantities suggested by some people. Beats me, are they going to set up a shop in their garages and sell everything? Would you buy food an other supplies from a guy that sells it with no possible way of verifying the conditions under which the food was kept? How much of a profit could you possibly make , comparing to having saved that same amount of money in gold, for example? I don’t understand it and I don’t know of anyone that made a profit by doing this. Yet, people stock up on TP and many other cheap, easily obtainable items thinking that it will be “worth it’s weight in gold” after the crisis. Newsflash: if it’s cheap and easy to produce, it will keep being that way AFTER tshtf.
Some guys advice to “invest” in such goods, tools, food and supplies for after TSHTF. No, no , no. 200 or 500 bucks worth of tools rusting away in the shed is not an investment. Its’ 200 bucks worth of tools for which you don’t have any use. That’s not an investment. An investment generates money, while products rotting away in some basement does nothing for you.
c) Forgetting about their financial security. I’d worry about REAL investments. Buying real estate that will provide me with a steady income on the longer run, an investment portfolio divided in a couple of reliable ( or as reliable as any organization can be) that will slowly grow, most of it set on minimum and medium risk investments, and not falling for the promises of high risk ones.
Money is so important, I can't begin to explain it. When prices skyrocket beyond the limits of superinflation, money does not turn into toilet paper as many survival experts predict, it become cherished, more valuable to you than ever. You have to turn yourself into a discriminating shopper, always looking for the best possible price, sometimes shopping in different branches of supermarkets so as to find the better deals and avoid those “hot” items grocery chains slip without you even noticing.
My father is visiting right now, handling business, and one thing he told me when I asked how did he see things going on here, he used the words “cheapskate” and “miserly”.
He said something like“ People count coins over and over, by the cent, and spend maybe 10 minutes thinking about spending every cent. They also look kind of shabby, untidy, I can’t explain it. Even the guys running around downtown with suits look bad”
I explained that his overall perception was indeed correct, mostly because the average person here uses clothes until they wear out, there’s not that much money left for looks, not getting haircuts as often as they should, shaving.
Yes, the fall on the purchasing power of people did affect the average person (at least most of them if not all) and you can see it on the streets.
d) Not all places are equal in terms of crime, but if something like this happens in US, I’d worry about being armed at all times, and learning how to use it to defend myself.
Again, not talking about waiting for the end of the world to bug in and pull the shotgun out of the firing ports, just go on with your life but do so armed.
Most people here don’t see things this way. The anti gun campaign is very strong here, and the majority of “sheep” see guns as evil objects, even though rape, crime and violence is smeared on their face every day. What can I say, most people are pretty stupid.
Those of us who go armed in this country are a reduced minority. After a few words, we recognize each other at the range or at gunshops with a knowing nod, knowing that most people, even among shooters , don’t share our opinions.
Even among “gun people” we have our important share of “Zumbos”, elitist hunters who think that firearms are hunting tools and shouldn’t be used by the lesser “civilians” for self defense.
e)Not trying to bore anyone to death here or anything, but going back to the issue of money. It’s so important to be financially set. Rather than spending tons of money on junk you wont ever use invest it smartly. Rich, unprepared people will suffer after TSHF… only in your wildest dreams. Money buys everything, including expensive food, medical care, security and relocation if needed.
When the economy collapses a big chunk of what used to be middle class (50% as minimum, more for sure) ends up being poor. It doesn’t matter how much guns you have, doesn’t matter if you can start a fire with a couple popsicles sticks or build an atomic bomb with a Snickers bar and a paper clip. Skills are of course important but you finances affect everything.
If you are middle class do everything you can to improve, climb way up the ladder. No I’m not talking about making more money than Bill Gates, I’m just talking about something every determined middle class person can achieve , no need to be a freaking financial genius. Make sure you climb your way up to the upper middle class, because once the pyramid starts sinking you don’t want to be below the 50%.
If you are really serious about financial security, diversify your real estate and other investments in different countries. My father did this and it made all the difference in the world. The man is my hero.
When you see serious trouble in the horizon and survivalists are thinking about bunkering in their cabins, you simply go on vacations to check out that little apartment or house you bought in Costa Rica for a bunch of pocket change a month. If Zombies take over or China invades, you can look for a job there, or live like a king thanks to the income you receive from that other apartment you have in France, a place in a small town near a major University, which you rent to students each year. 600 Euros a month will allow you to live comfortably in Costa Rica, and most countries in South America. And the best part of all this? If nothing EVER happens you just have a few properties here and there that are constantly generating money for you, in case you want to retire early or if you ever have a health problem or any other issue that puts you out of the job market. Again, a couple of properties here and there isn't such a big deal, most people can achieve that with a bit of effort, it's just a matter of priorities.
f)The lack of reality based preparations. Some people focus on preparing for something that will never happen, preparing for getting up one day and walking into Mad Max’s world. This is of course, not a smart idea. Not only are you forgetting about the other, more likely possibilities, but you also ignore that you’ll have to go through them before it reaches to a road warrior point, if it ever gets to that.
People that have thousands and thousands of dollars in tools, equipment, and maybe spent hundreds of thousands more building the ultimate retreat, but don’t have a penny invested anywhere. When asked they‘ll say that it will all be worth nothing when TSHTF.
Hopefully, this person will have several years worth of food along with all the other stuff he’ll rarely get to use, so at least he wont starve to death. But is eating all you aspire for in live? Not to mention what would happen if he got sick/robbed/place burns to the ground/hurricane/flood destroys it and suddenly needs the money he said he would never need.
Prepare for a broad spectrum of possibilities. So you’ll have your food and supplies for short and medium periods of time where supermarkets may be closed due to looting, riots, lack of supply , etc and you have others plans in case things get worse or you are forced to get out of there.
Something like what happened here happening in US? Don’t go nuts, shooting the neighbor’s kid for crossing over to your yard to pick up his frizbee. Just adjust to the situation.
Once the first few weeks are over and people start calming down, just be more careful out there, don’t throw away money on stuff you don’t need and try to keep a generally low profile. It’s also important to do well at work, because people get fired like crazy during those times, companies trying to reduce expenses or not needing you any more for lack of production.
During these times is when your investments kick in. Not only do you have a place to exile to if things don’t go back to normal or they don’t fit what you expect in life anymore, you also have a form of income that is out of the circle of your local economy. Let’s say the dollar looses ½ it’s value, you still have your apartment in France or wherever the heck you want to invest, pumping in Euros that are now much more valuable, probably compensating for the local inflation, so whether you decide to leave or stay, you have the means to go either way.
I have often thought of possible survival scenarios ever since the Carter administration. The only time in American history which might be used as comparison is probably the American South after the War Between the States.
The soldiers came home to an area largely devastated, their homes destroyed etc. Instead of government aid they were faced with government oppression. They were disenfranchised, Carpetbaggers controlled legislatures made up mostly of former slaves. They passed bond bills making the area a debtor for a long time. Some of those reconstruction era bonds were not totally repaid until the 1960’s.
How did the people survive? I guess they just did what they had to do. Some probably starved but eventually they rebuilt their area.
The ways in which we differ are pretty large tho. These people were often subsistence farmers and knew how to survive on not much. They also were frankly tougher than us, at least as a whole.
I do agree with those who think saving up stores of food, ammunition, etc. are a good idea. I don’t think there will be roving bands of zombies trying to steal everything one has but there probably will be individual people doing so.
Rural and semi-rural areas will be the safest despite what this guy says. People in rural areas are just as capable of banding together for mutual protection as people in suburbs. Maybe more so.
The real problems will be the same areas which are problems now. The inner cities and I think most people living there will at least try to stay there.
Hi everyone. Thanks a lot Travis ;-)
I dont disagree with stocking up on essential (TP, food, tools, etc) what I do disagree with is stocking up on these expecting them to become some sort of currency or make you any significant money after SHTF. Whatever it is you do its, better to save that money in precious metals.
I have many tools, also drills, grinders, and others, I know how to use them of course and do most of my house repairs.
“To: djf; Black Agnes; Lurker
Given these kinds of things, I don’t see the practicality of depending on foreign properties. It’s not like you would have six weeks to get your passport in order…”
That’s why you should get your passport in order NOW. More than likely, if you keep alert and looks for the signs you can take “extended vacations” with more than enough time.
“and arrange for some nice neighbors to watch you place”
Right about that. That’s why I don’t encourage people to have a fixed location with all their eggs in one basket.
IF , (big if) hordes of raiders come your way, call me crazy but I’d rather not be there. There’s no winning against what you have in mind. Either you lose your home with the stuff inside, or you lose your home and stuff AND your life. I’d rather be elsewhere by then.
Travis has a plan, he has means to leave in his “pod”, others can have other plans to leave in a hurry as well.
“and go to the drugstore to stock up on suntan lotion or something...”
Suntan lotion is available world wide as long as you have the money.
Another point worth making, you can get your papers ready in a day or two if you know the right people and have a nice stash of cash. Not getting into much detail, it can be done and I’ve done it before, doing something in that line right now as a matter of fact.
A bit of people’s skill and cash goes a long way.
Moral issues aside, sometimes you simply don’t have an option.
“Owning real estate means you have to manage it. You can manage a rental in France from Costa Rica- not without paid help to get the rent and to get it to you. You cannot rely on such help in hard times. That part is quite unrealistic. Food stockup makes sense. About which see the “Mormon one year plan” etc.”
Unless there’s a complete collapse and that with a socialist/communist twist, you still have your property and can manage it. About the cost, its less than setting up a loaded retreat/bunker with some of the setups some survival gurus claim you simply must have.
One little lesson I’ve learn: If you didn’t even try doing it don’t say it can’t be done. It can be done, doesn’t require a small personal fortune and I know one American that did just that recently on an average salary. Some bestselling financial authors write entire books that sum up the following way: Rent your place, have a US based business, and live in a 3rd world country were money goes 3 to 5 times further.
I don’t recommend living in a 3rd world country because I know 3rd world countries and the risks involved better than some of these guys that only see the advantages, not the cons. But still it is true that property can be very cheap in some countries and make you good money per month. Of course there’s always risks like everything else in life but mostly it’s a matter not knowing how to do these things, rather than not being possible.
“To: angkor
How did you go about buying property in another country? I would have no idea how to do that.”
Best thing to do (and cheapest way) is to actually go to the places and countries you’re considering, staying there some time and doing research. Get in touch with local realtors, then to a realtor that wont steal from you and find you a good deal.
“To: 2ndDivisionVet
But investments? WTF? You’re liable to get robbed or killed if you go to the supermarket, much less an ATM or bank!
And I don’t necessarily agree with him summarily dismissing stocking up on TP or whatever. There was a show on a while back called “The New Pioneers” or something like that, a reality show where these folks tried to make it as ranchers in the old west.”
You have to be smart about it. Being honest, I dress like crap drive in a beaten up import car that is as dirty as it gets.
The car is dirty, attracts less attention, you don’t look wealthy. The car is a tricky deal: The most common models, even though less expensive, get stolen MUCH more often than my Daewoo Lanos that costs almost twice as much than Renalut 9, Fiat Uno, etc. But why do bad guys look for these common cars and not mine that is more expensive? First, as I said it looks like crap, has dents and bumps from roadblocks and protesters, never fixed it, never will.
Second, and here’s the little secret: These inexpensive, more common cars, there’s a much greater market for their stolen parts. :-)
So you see, things aren’t always easy, black or white, US wont go directly into Mad Max “ Oh, no here nothing like what happened in Argentina would occur, here we’d go straight for Roadwarrior” People, don’t mean to offend anyone, but you’re already starting to look like Argentina. Hope you’ll never go down the way we did in 2001 but there are so many similarities, the society is being affected in such a similar manner in spite of the differences.
” There was a show on a while back called “The New Pioneers” or something like that, a reality show where”
And guys, PLEASE don’t base you’re preparedness plans based on reality TV shows.
The thing about TP never going to be worth more than it already is world wide is that we’re full of scrap paper and cardboard, and TP is extremely easy to make, even in psot collapse society. Buy lots of it for you and future use, but don’t make the mistake of thinking you can make a buck selling TP after SHTF
Take care guys.
FerFAL
You bet! Nursing sick computers back to life would sure be a winner. That’s a service I need even now. Imagine if nobody can buy new hardware or upgrade any computer stuff for a year or three.
And “shade tree mechanics” who can get more life out of old cars will be in great demand. Plumbers too.
I’ve been studying up on the Lebanon Civil War (1975-1990) and the Balkan wars of the 90s, looking for lessons. Going rural sure didn’t work in Lebanon. Isolated villages, much less homesteads, were wiped out in vicious ethnic cleansing. Area “militias” in both wars turned into mafia, and collected “taxes” and “customs” at checkpoints. If they didn’t like your face, they shot you. You couldn’t hide out successfully for long. Maybe in a remote valley in Idaho, maybe.
And in both Lebanon and Yugoslavia, despite real “SHTF” conditions, cities continue to exist. They are very tough organisms despite taking many “insults,” including prolonged lack of power and water, artillery battles, snipers, car bombs etc.
In spite of all of that, very few “headed for the hills” as a better alternative. After the second unofficial militia checkpoint you would be robbed. After the third, you would be shot. To “head for the hills,” you have to already be living in the hills before TSHTF.
To survive, most assumed a “gray man” strategy in the suburbs. If you are a male of fighting age, you WILL be conscripted by the local militia. No choice. Fight, or be shot as a coward/spy/traitor. If you are a male under 15 or over 50, you may be allowed to slide. In that case, your job is protecting your family and scrounging for food, while the young men of your family are on forced militia duty, like it or not.
The only other viable option is just as FerFal says: LEAVE and move to another country. 100s of thousands of Lebanese and Yugos just left those countries, never to return. But to leave, you really need to put some tendrils down in the countries you might escape for. Relatives help, foreign money / gold helps.
One way it might play out differently in the case of the USA is to “emmigrate regionally.” It might be SHTF in New England, but much better in Texas, for example.
That's what I'm talking about. And electricians. I can do those things. It is also why I am finishing rebuilding a '79 Bronco. Pretty much all new, carburated, powerful and lifted. Uses some gas but it will go anywhere and I can fix it. I have a little left to do and spare parts to store. My buds and I have 5 or six of these older trucks. New stuff is nice, but over my head when it breaks.
See 82, reply by Ferfal.
See 82, reply by FerFal.
One of my memories of Beirut 1983 was blowing a special gasket in our 35’ twin turbe diesel “Seafox” boat. Boy, was that a problem! I was the det commander, so it was MY fault, of course. The seafox crew (in my det but not SEALs) did not have a replacement, and the boat was “down hard” until a new gasket could be flown in from the states. The gasket was in an odd shape roughly a foot by six inches, with some kind of cork/asbestos inside of a pressed metal rim or flange. Not something they stock at the 7-11.
I went to downtown Beirut to a shop recommended by a local contact, and they built me an exact copy of the gasket on the spot. (We took out the opposite “good” gasket, they made a mirror image.)
Necessity is the mother of invention. In the third world, folks figure out how to fix, rebuild or replace almost anything, without getting “factory parts.”
I went to a Fort Lauderdale junkyard with a Colombian guy once. He was AMAZED. He said most of the cars in the American junkyard would still be running in Colombia, even if they had to take two wrecks, cut them in half, and weld the two “good” halves together! And he was dead serious. He couldn’t believe how Americans were “throwing away” nearly perfect cars because of a “little” (to him) damage.
We’ll adapt, we’ll have to. And having a “skill” will make a huge difference. Hey, I’m still a welder! I haven’t forgotten how to fabricate anything out of metal. Any metal, any process, any position. Custom fabrication is my specialty, up to and including my 48’ “Escape Pod.”
I guess I am looking at things from a perspective of where it is best to live rather than where to go.
I think one should stay where they are no matter where they live. I can’t imagine someone abandoning their home and moving to the country in such a scenario.
For one thing everyone would know some stranger had moved into the area and would immediately become suspicious of you.
Having said that, I really do think a rural area such as where I live would be best. First of all, I know all my neighbors. I am probably kin to half the people in the county. (my Mother was one of 12 and my Father one of 9 children) No group unless they are really large is going to come into our communtiy and take over.
My parents and my late wife’s parents all lived during the great depression. They hardly noticed it because they lived on farms and raised nearly everything they needed.
Although we moved from our farm when I was four, I still remember the smoke house, the spring where we got our water until we had a well. I remember using twigs from a certain tree to clean our teeth. Using corncobs for toilet paper, or even certain types of leaves. My Mother made our own soap.
That doesn’t mean we didn’t have those things such as tooth brushes etc. we did but we knew how to substitute when we were away from the house etc.
I think people in large cities will have it worst. I do agree they will stay put. People simply stay where they are familiar with things.
My Greatgrandfather did not have electricity but he had hot and cold running water. (from a concrete reservoir on the hill above his house.) He had a telephone system which connected him to his relattives, also had a carbide light system.
I don’t think Lebanon is very similar. There you had a Christian minority who were generally the upper class and Muslim majority who probably hated the Christians. Basically a built in Civil War potential. Add in Israel and Syria and a real mess no matter what.
Cool. I can't weld. Friends can though. Right about the junkyards, my truck and the others could be fixed indefinatly from parts in yards all over here. Hank is right, country boy will survive.
Oh, I totally agree with you if you’re already in a good location. Worse comes to worse, you can “go Amish.” It won’t be easy, but it will be doable.
And with the number of scoped rifles out in the hinterland, it won’t be much fun being in a gang of raiders. Organized militias with some form of military discipline might be willing to take casualties to take territory, but rabble won’t.
Those junkyards will befome more valuable with time!
I think a great skill to learn would be electrical motor repair/rewinding. Some guys can fix almost any generator/alternator with basic stuff. Those guys will be in great demand too, once we shed our “if it breaks, toss it” mentality.
Thanks very much for joining the Forum and for sharing your advice. You’ve given me a lot to think about.
Good luck.
Lurker
Yes, necessity really is the Mother of invention and other things.
I read the story of U-boat 124, the Edelweiss Boat, and one tight spot they found themselves. In the middle of the Atlantic they burned out a bearing in the diesel engine and although they had a machine shop on board they had nothing to use for the material.
Finally someone figured out that their cigarette packs contained a foil which was made of the same material as the bearings. After collecting every pack they had, they had just enough material to cast and then machine a bearing. They made it home on that makeshift part.
Travis, terrific story on that part you needed made and its true. Enough bucks will get you out of most problems and its usually not that much :-)
There’s a small town up north in the province of Salta here in Argentina, they have an old vapor train working in good conditions. They actually manage to make all the spare parts they need on their own shop. As you say, necessity is the mother of invention.
Many many years ago, when I was a little kid and we lived in Boston, my dad would pick perfectly good bikes that were being thown away to fix them, they maybe needed another chain, or just had a flat tire. We couldn’t believe it. It wasn’t that we needed it or anything. My father was a high executive of Bank Boston and we sure didn’t need the money. It just didn’t compute in his brain that people threw away things that actually worked.
Cars here cost a lot of money, so of course, most of the things you guys thorw away here are perefcetly good (and running ) cars. We really don’t have anything like car compactors, everything gets fixed and kept running.
You’re also right about people adapting. Its easy to say, that no it wont happen, that we world will end instead. Sounds much more spectacular. Reality is less amazing and more mundane. People will scrounge more, learn to fix stuff more, and do whatever they can to get by better, even if a lot of the old middle class ends up poor.
3rd world people aren’t anything special, we don’t come form another planet, its just that you figure out ways of getting by because you don’t have much of a choice.
I suppose that if for us, throwing away a refirgierator instead of fixing it made no difference financially speaking we would all do that. But since a fiidge costs a bit more than the average monthly salary, people find a way, find someone to fix it or fix it themselves.
Computer as well, old computers keep on getting repaired and upgraded any way they can. Every buck counts.
I read once about a women during the siege of Sarajevo, every day when going to work, she ran across a street with heavy sniper activity, risking getting shot to go to work. “But you don’t Work when SHTF!” Yes man, you do! :-)
Even if you already live isoltated before SHTF, the more isolated you are in a high crime environment, let alone heavy gang or ethnical prosecution, the more likely you are to get hit harder. The Rohedesian farmers come to mind.
Travis, during the Spanish civil war my grandfather bribed his way out of service under Franco. A couple hams, and mostly, lots of cash to gets his “papers” in order. Same thing for moving to Argentina. Back then you needed a family member already in Argentina claim you and pay for you. If not, guess what happened? You where sent to work in the fields in the provinces. Everyone wanted to stay in Buenos Aires city where salaries were much better.
My grandfather was a good carpenter and worked making a luxury item: Pool tables. He was also good at business and soon had his own carpentry that occupied half a block. With the money they didn’t buy a retreat and several acres, (even tohugh they were both farmers back in Spain) with the extra money my grandma started a very succeful bakery. Later they closed because of a series of armed robberies. The bough a few apartments, also lost a lot of money they had in the bank during Martínez de Hoz in 78. The lesson my grandma always tells me is that the only this that was always safe where their real estate investments, both here in Argentina and during the civil war in Spain. Land and bricks. Money in the bank mostly belongs to the bank, not you.
FerFAL
My Sister and Brother-in-Law sometimes vacation in Argentina.
If I remember right, they travel to Cordoba via bus. The buses have beds in them so they can sleep on the long trip. I do know they much prefer Cordoba to Buenos Aires. Also say Argentina is inexpensive.
Thanks for the posts.
My questions, the kind of things I wonder about, is the severity of the situation and what causes it.
I mean if all the store shelves empty, that’s about as extreme as it could be. Then we’re talking Night of The Living Dead zombie stuff. In that case or extreme, bug out locations make sense, but I also think that any bug out place would be overrun eventually anyways.
Also I wonder about community organization, so to speak. I’ve personally talked to neighbors, some vets, all armed, and ready to do what it takes to keep order. But that’s a great idea in theory, can it be reliably be put into practice?
I tend to agree that having TP stocked up thinking you will make a killing is not all that great an idea. My inclination is that it would be far better if you have tools and know how to fix things. Your comments about re-building computers is a perfect example.
Anyways, thanks for the comments!
In Rawles’ new book he mentions the wisdom of living at the edge of a smaller town, at the end of a dead end road. You have the advantage of being “in town” but also being somewhat, but not too, isolated.
Wow!
To play the devil’s advocate here in regards to rural retreats, the federal government knows those areas are already “hotbeds” of independent, freedom loving people. In the current political climate, they could easily declare large portions of privately owned lands to be “protected wetlands”, or the habitat of some obscure, but endangered, species. It wouldn’t take much to suddenly find your land claimed by the federal government ready to take it by force, if need be.
Your thoughts?
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